Aftercare is not just for kinks. Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
Put QRQJ into action with our free 5 question worksheet. Get it here: bit.ly/QRQJworksheet
Shop at As You Like It here: bit.ly/asyoulikeitshop
Connective Therapy Collective website: www.connectivetherapycollective.com
FB & IG: @connectivetherapycollective
Listen here:
TRANSCRIPT
Melisa: If we have no aftercare, where are we leaving? There's this drop-off, there's nothing, you know? And so it sort of easing out of the sexual experience back into a connective experience in a different, like at a different energetic level. And it can continue too we're not just talking like the 20, 30 minutes after a sexual encounter. It can continue like the next day, the next week, between visits. And yeah, I think about it as connection. Keely: Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. You have me , Keely C. Helmick, owner of Connective Therapy Collective as one of your hosts Melisa: and your other hosts, Melissa. DeSegiurant a therapist at Connective Therapy collective Keely: So in Portland, Oregon today, it's a snow day. So I'm just going to preface this with, like, if anyone's watching the YouTube video right now, I am in fact in my bedroom and you may see a random child pop their head in, but we will definitely make sure that Cardinal will edit that out if that so happens. Melisa: Winter is back. Keely: Yes, Winter is back. I mean, it's glorious. I have my set up right now with my computer in zoom that I can look at it while we're talking. But yeah, it's quite the... quite interesting. Melissa, do you want to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you're up to? We don't have an interview today so we can kind of do a catch up like-, like introductions and catch up all in ones. Cool. Melisa: Well, I'm Melissa. I use she, they pronouns, like I said, I'm a therapist at Connective Therapy Collective. I am bisexual. I am polyamorous, non monogamously dating and enjoying, I think this weird winter day, I'm very confused. My system is very confused as to what's happening. I was really embracing spring and then it snowed. And I don't know, ironically, I felt like this weekend was a lot of like winter themes and just from my own personal work, you know it felt like a very inward focused kind of like re-examining previous dark nights of the soul type energy. So it's interesting that it culminated in a snow day. It feels very fitting. But yeah, I don't want to go too far into it. Cause then I'll, I'll spoil my queer joy. But yeah, I, I am, I I'm in an interesting state this spring - whatever Whatever season we're actually in right now. I'm doing a lot of reflection, so yeah, there's not a ton of like updates to report because it's a lot of internal work that will manifest later on most likely in the fall and into next year. Keely: Cool. Okay. Yeah. I, so I'm Keely C. Helmick, owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a queer sex therapist. I am queer non-binary femme. White able-bodied currently practicing solo, poly, non-monogamous and looking at the snow. And so my eyes keep getting distracted by the beautiful snow. Yeah, I, so I had some, a couple of fun things and I, I wouldn't necessarily label them as queer joy. So I'll have something else for the queer joy. What was fun is that I was able to actually practice the STARS acronym. Yeah. With a new partner... a partner. Okay. That's a whole other thing by the way, Melissa, that maybe we'll tackle today. I want to talk about verbiage and not like, not gendered, like not boyfriend, girlfriend, but like other labels. Melisa: Gender neutral labels. Keely: Yes, gender neutral language. So again, speaking of that new person and trying out the STARS acronym. It was cute and awkward. And I really, it felt really good to be practicing. Melisa: Did you remember them all or did you like look it up together? Did you add in the P? Did you add in the porn conversation? I'm so interested. Keely: We totally did, because I told them that... they'd actually listened to the episode. And so I did bring that up and we did talk about. porn. We did remember all the acronyms mainly they were able to, they had actually attended the workshop a couple of years ago, or somehow knew Evaline in in some kind of context with like sex positive Portland. And so we did have the full conversation and I will say. Actually, I think the piece that we got stuck on more because we, this wasn't our first date. This was like the, we had hung out. We'd been hanging out for weeks now. And the part about relationship intentions. Ah, yeah, got a little, and then we started kind of sidetracking about how we know people in common. And... Melisa: you were avoiding the intentions and going to other other places. Keely: Yeah, I know. It's really interesting. What it reinforced to me is, cause there's pieces around, for instance, like the STI STD checkups, like I know my status, I get checked regularly. I get checked in between partners. I knew my status. So that was an easy conversation piece. And then turn ons and avoids, like I have some basics that I've run through with partners obvious- well, not maybe not, obviously I shouldn't say obviously, but for me, I know that the, my dynamics sometimes shifts what might turn ons and avoids are, but that there's like a general listing that it's, that is pretty easy for me to talk about. Melisa: Sure. Keely: But then going into what I want in a relationship or what I'm looking for, the intention to pass mine and some fumbling and they were in the same place I was around that. Cause they were like, yeah, I'm not sure, but we did complete the conversation and had... and even got, you know, even when it's so far, it's talking about our dynamics within our households, because they have they have roommates, I have a roommate. So even just things that navigating that. So it was, it was a great warmup and it really reinforced, you know, plug with the upcoming workshop in a couple of weeks, but it did reinforce the piece, which is the beginning of the workshop. And for me, a reminder of going through that by myself and having some check-ins with myself around these topics so that I know what to say to other people. Yeah. The mind change, what I want changes, all of these pieces change. And so. Yeah, it was, it was really interesting. And I will be curious, I wonder the feedback. I mean, the feedback from my- the person they were talking- they were telling people that we're going to have this like talk. And people were like... Really? Melisa: I hear there was some judgment about the talk from mothers. Keely: Well, it's interesting. I think that I don't what, what I got from it was that their friends were... had an idea of what our dynamic was in a different way that we're navigating so I think that there was this like edge of like super, super casual and the person wasn't, I don't know, I don't know what's going to happen, but I think that was the piece is the friends were kind of like teasing and the lifestyle, like where- Melisa: Perhaps, they don't get quite as excited as we do about communications. Keely: Well, like this person does, but their friends. Yeah. I think that when their friends are not like, oh my gosh, I want to sit and talk about this. So I think the piece- so tying in with our topic today as we are navigating- cause next week we're going to have a, we have an interview. Yay. So exploring more of this communication piece around sex aftercare. Melisa: I love when we've been talking about aftercare, both in our, in our workshops and groups. About sex and also kind of, as we do with non-monogamy, how aftercare can be applied to so many things besides just sex. So it's, it's a concept I think is really important. And one, I personally did not know until relatively recently, like within the last two years, Keely: Yeah. And I think that there's been, so just how so many things, there's this piece of like CIS heteronormativity, CIS hetero monogamous normativity. And when we think of even the term aftercare, I think about how in the past, or when I think about something, how it is applied historically, people will think about this as like, quote unquote Pillowtalk or different ways they think about talking about afterwards. Though, honestly, this is such an important thing to talk about because many people actually don't think about it. Melisa: Right. Or don't practice it at all. Keely: No, they don't practice. It's like, oh. Cause when we think like let's even go back a little further, if we're thinking about sexual interactions that are CIS hetero monogamous, there is a penis and vagina involved and only two people in a bedroom and sex ends or the sexual encounter ends when one, hopefully both, but usually man, let's be real statistically, one person. Has an orgasm and then it's done, like, that's what we think of as sex. That is what we're taught. That is still the norm. You know, even in this bubble of like CTC, this bubble of what we do, that's the norm. And so then the pillow talk or talking about it afterwards is usually pretty brief. From what I understand, when I talk to folks is like, again, people fall asleep. Melisa: I was going to say or non-existent. It's like, when I think about, if you had labeled anything I used to do is aftercare. It's like, okay, the penis, you know, comes and then I go clean myself up and come back to this snoring person. Does that count? Maybe that's not what we're going for an aftercare. Interpersonal experience. Not just like, Keely: wow. Right? Yeah. Melisa: So I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. That's my. General past experience with sex with penises. Keely: There you go. So we are saying, Hey, let's explore all these other ways that we can have interactions. And I think that's part of when people come out of those situations, the sexual situations, not feeling satisfied or not feeling good. It's not just about orgasm because people can have really... Can report really enjoyable, satisfying sexual experiences, even without an orgasm. Melisa: Right. Right. When I think about aftercare and the importance of it, I think about all of the, like the chemicals that really get released in our bodies when we are having sex. If we have no aftercare, where are we leaving? There's this drop-off, there's nothing, you know? And so it sort of easing out of the sexual experience back into a connective experience in a different, like at a different energetic level. And it can continue too we're not just talking like the 20, 30 minutes after a sexual encounter. It can continue like the next day, the next week, between visits. And yeah, I think about it as connection. Keely: And, and when you said the chemicals that are released, you know, one of the main ones being oxytocin, not the only chemical, but when we think about oxytocin as the bonding chemical, then really aftercare is that opportunity to really solidify or form more of a bond with the person you're with. Now, if we're talking about a one night stand. Th- that's very different, but we're not talking about that today. Like, yes, we want to support aftercare for, from a fling or one night stand. Yes. This is what we're talking about more today though, is that with somebody that you have a continued interaction with and whether it be a casual, whether it be non-monogamous, long-term, married, what live- in nesting partner, whatever the case. How to really, for yourself, be connected with yourself and have that connection with that person. And I think one of the pieces is, like you said, is recognizing. What's happening in that moment. Okay. So maybe you go clean up. Okay, great. You know, do you shower together? Do you like to shower together? Do you have a routine that feels good? Do you want to have that person? Maybe you want to stay snuggle for like a certain amount of time before you go clean up? You know, some people may be okay with that. Some people may be like, no, I need to clean that first. Like I need to really. So then you can say, Hey, by the way, can you stay awake for the next 15 minutes while I clean up so that we can stay connected? Melisa: I'll be right back. I'd like to cuddle when I'm done. Keely: Yeah. I think about with aftercare is like actually still having certain topics off the table. Like almost keeping when I think about it, it's like the immediate aftercare is still maintaining this bubble. So that I don't want to hear about certain... I don't want to think about work for me. I don't wanna think about my kids. I don't wanna think about certain things, but I'm in this like nice feeling of like sexualness. Melisa: Yeah. That's a great way of, of thinking about it. Like the civil energetic bubble that you don't want to just pop right away and like okay. Jerk back out into like everyday life and tasks and routines and to do is like maintaining that: the connectedness, but also just energetically that I don't know if it's a flow state or what that like emotion, like embodied state is that we're in, but maintaining that and sharing that together. Keely: Yeah. And it's such an opportunity to keep that yummy feeling. Okay. And orgasm lasts... well, typical organisms. Elongated, full body orgasm. That's a whole 'nother topic, not for today, but we're thinking standard, sexual encounter with an orgasm, the yummy feelings can really continue. Even if you've already had the orgasm, if you've stopped, you know, general stimulation or you're seeing your interaction has stopped. But aftercare actually allows for that continued, so that how that sexual encounter wraps up can really influence how the next sexual encounter feels or the next bid for connection can feel like from, from a partner. Melisa: Yeah. We've talked about transitions before, and this is exactly what this is. It's, it's transitioning from. That, you know, being together in a sexual way to not, and, and how we are intentional about that and how we go about that can have a great impact on the relationship and like you said, the next encounter. Keely: Yeah. Yeah. And so we just started talking about the, like right away after the sexual encounter and borrowing from kink and BDSM and non-monogamy is what does aftercare look like? Hours after a sexual encounter. And sometimes even like a day or two, like sometimes, especially, I think it's really taken for granted what in literature. And when we do research and talk about things that there's always this underlying assumption that would ever work is done around sex, that it is with a monogamous partner, and honestly live in person. And so for non-monogamous folks, for folks that have don't live together, and for folks that engage in kink scenes and BDSM scenes, the aftercare really can be applied to multiple hours or days later... like that in-between. Melisa: It could be that text you'd get later that night or the next morning. I like, it's like a check-in right with a, with a certain, you know, a different, I guess, intention in mind, you know, back in, but take care of and continue the experience. Keely: I have this pin. I want aftercare all the time. Because for some people, aftercare is the thing for them. Melisa: Right? Well, as you were saying that it's like, cause I've had the question. I actually, Ooh, dating apps need to get on this. They have questions about foreplay, but do they have questions about aftercare. Keely: Wait a minute. Rewind. Melisa: Okay. I don't know many, but like apps such as OkCupid, for example. The opportunity where you can answer questions about lots of different things, and they'll have like, is foreplay important to you and you get to rank your importance, but I have never seen one of that aftercare. Keely: Interesting. Yes. And I'm actually thinking, as we're talking about this, I don't think Evaline addresses aftercare in her work either. Melisa: Right? Well, cause what you were saying about, I want aftercare all the time, I'm like, yeah, because in my mind, that becomes the foreplay for the next... Like it's all a big cycle and we just keep going. Keely: So I love that, Melissa. I want to clarify what you just said. Cause it was a great thing you just said is aftercare, is the foreplay for the next sexual encounter? Yeah. So, how do we think about that in that also ties to, when I think about folks talking about foreplay starts in the morning, foreplay goes on. I mean, there's this like fluidity of this sexual energy that doesn't have to stop. Melisa: Right. Yeah. And what I want to say too, is it's important to agree to this with your partner because what that could look like can vary drastically from person to person. For me, for example, I want the foreplay, I want the aftercare. However, I'm not someone who responds super well to direct sexual comments unless like I'm in the act of having sex. If somebody just heard that, they may assume the foreplay is like, ooh, you know, you want to do this? And I'm like, ooh, nope. That's not for me. That's not foreplay. Keely: You know what your foreplay is. Okay. So we're like adding odds to the stars thing, but this is what we're talking about to o when we're talking about how we want to be talked to. And we were saying how I had mentioned earlier on what are certain pet names or certain labels. And then we're also thinking about how we want our bodies to be referred to. So I think the vocabulary, the requests and the discussion is around the vocabulary use. Melisa: Yeah, totally. It makes me think of the love languages. Like, is your aftercare going to be in the form of physical touch or is it words of affirmation or do you want like a little gift or a little present? Keely: You know, what, what could that look like? Do you want to debrief what just happened? What felt good and what didn't feel good? You're like highlights of, I mean, right. That's I mean, that's usually what my aftercare of course. Super queer aftercare is like let's let's analyze everything. How did that work for you? How was that? Oh, that was great. Oh, that was fantastic. That was awesome. We'll debrief, debrief. By the way. Debriefing could last from 30 minutes to an hour and a half to two hours. Yeah. I was joking with someone, side note. I was joking with somebody, we were talking about quickies and I was like, yeah, quickies and me, by the way like queer terms is an hour quickie, you know, like this idea of quickie is like 10 minutes or so. I don't know, 10, 15 minutes and CIS heteronormative terms, by the way, a quickie. I mean, I guess to me, 10 to 15 minute is a bathroom situation. That's what is 10 to 15 minutes. Okay. Okay. It's a quickie. Melisa: It's good to clarify. Keely: See clarification. After care could also just look like co-regulation, it can be non-verbal breathing together, you know, and listening to music. Yeah. That act of cuddling. Well, and that's interesting. If we look at, and I will say I have a hard time with the term foreplay because of the, again is heteronormative views of what foreplay is in using this term as finding a term that talking about before the sexual encounter before like really it's like when they, when in research and when they talk about foreplay in most books, it's really like. What happens before genital stimulation. Melisa: Right? Often it's like, which parts of the body do you touch before general stipulation? And for me, I'm like foreplay happens. So no it's verbal, it's intellectual, it's spiritual, it's emotional. Like yeah. Keely: Well, clarifying that clarifying all of that is, you know, with foreplay is getting that right. You know, getting that Headspace and really understanding what that looks like, and that changes that changes day to day, week to week. So having those, these conversations, but really noticing for yourself what you like about it. So I, as I often, when we talk about these topics, I think people are gonna want like a step. I feel like people want to know. Okay. So then what do I do? Like, almost just like step-by-step. How do I formulate aftercare? Or how do I formulate these pieces together? I will say that the I'm thinking of, I don't know if we, something we can post on the website, but I do know that reflecting on kink and BDSM resources, that they often describe aftercare more thoroughly than any other place that I've seen. Melisa: Yeah. I mean, it starts, I think, with a conversation with it. We're adding on again. Well, now we're adding on the AF at the end. STARS-AF?. There we go. Yeah. Foreplay. Keely: Okay, check in by the way. Sorry. I believe we will check in we're joking around. Melisa: We are. No. But I do think having the conversation about it, like, Hey, do you know, after what aftercare is, have you ever practiced that? Have you been intentional about that before? And then, you know, I think you brought it up earlier. Really. It's a good idea to have this conversation with yourself so that you know what you're proposing not to say, you have to know exactly what your aftercare would look like, but it would be good to practice having some language. Yeah. Even if the languages, you know, I've noticed that I have this emotional thing that happens after I have sex with somebody. I'd like to talk about aftercare, but it's not something I've practiced yet. Have you ever had any experience with it and start there. Keely: Yeah. So really, if we're going step-by-step or it really aligns with the general communication conversation, but that really reflecting on yourself. So if you're listening to podcasts and you haven't heard the term aftercare, or it's new to you, or you're like, oh, I think what I do is aftercare. I just hadn't used that label for it. Yeah. Stepping back and seeing, cause it's given me a really good opportunity to, to recognize. Where there's even within a sexual dynamic that isn't BDSM specific. There can be, so BDSM is called sub drop and with a certain sexual again, with sexual encounters, when we're talking about chemical releases and we have the dopamine and the oxytocin, and there can be a shift that feels kind of sad or less positive. Like there can be a drop that happens even in all types of sexual interactions. Absolutely. And that's the piece where, why aftercare is so important in the kink dynamic, but again can be applied to other situations where there's this continued communication or continued attention. To wants and desires. Yeah, Melisa: yeah, yeah. You're right about, I think that's the first time I heard the term aftercare was when learning about kink and I've had clients who are very specific with partners, about how their systems work with the dynamics that they're engaging in. I've had clients literally tell people like, okay, so afterwards here's, what's going to happen. I'm going to cry. You're going to go in the other room and grab some water. 10 minutes, I'll be okay. Then we're going to hug. Then we're going to kiss. And then we're going to watch cartoons. How's that sound? I mean, I love that. Right? Like here's what works for me, you know? And that's awesome. And again, if you don't have that knowledge about yourself or, you know, you're not in a partnership at this point where there's that much explicit communication it could be more like, Hey, I might be a little bit emotional or tender. Right. You know, you're a new partner for me. Let's let's check in, you know, a day after if we do have sex, just to see where we are, how we're doing, you know? Yeah. And it could even look like you, you, you didn't talk about the aftercare who didn't get it. And then you're addressing those feelings with a partner at the next check-in. And again, that's an opportunity to say, here's what came up for me. Like what, what would this look like? Would it be okay if we checked in via text is saying, Hey, hope you're having a good week. Two days later, you know? But, but using those as opportunities to build more connections and teach people about how we work and what works for us. Keely: Yes, yes. Building connections, what works for us, how to feel emotionally and physically safe with our connections and sexual interactions with others, and being aware of other people's needs and desires in these situations to also be able to care for other people while taking care of ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Well, some more information about that will be discussed on the workshop- on the workshop? In the work- Melisa: during the workshop? Keely: During the workshop, which is a, will be a hybrid situation. Okay. A live workshop in Eugene, Oregon, but you can also access it online and it'll be from 2 to 4:00 PM on Sunday, May 1st check out event brights or our website for more details. So a now's a time for Queer Joy, and I seemed like you were ready for virtual because I'm going to rack my brain from it. I know I had lots of joyful things that happened this week, but I'm not sure which one I'm going to pick yet. Do you want to go ahead and go first? Melisa: I wish it was as thought out in my brain, as it seems like it is. It's not, I, like I said, it was a really introspective weekend for me, which needed to happen. I think I got a little off track with like, not checking in with myself super regularly. And so, you know, as a universe does was like, Hey, pause. I, one of the things I wanted to shout out a great resource for listeners to actually MENA B. I don't know if I have the Instagram readily available. But I'll, I'll, I'll mention her again in future episodes. CIS in San Francisco actually, no, I think it's in the east bay. California at school did a, a workshop on boundaries that need to be ran. And it was fantastic. It was a four hour workshop on Saturday. I found out about it the night before, so it was really a spontaneous for me, but timely and I did go in... I think this is why it hasn't totally integrated. I went in just as a person, not as a therapist, so I didn't have my clinical hat on. Yeah. And it needed to happen. I really went into examine my own boundaries and we did a lot of work back to childhood. And then how that's manifested in relationships. And that's just, as you all know, that's been a theme for me for a long time. So it was great. I have a lot more processing to do that kind of launched me into a very introspective weekend, but I recognized that my brain was starting to explode in a good way, but like, it was a lot. By like Sunday afternoon, I'm like, how am I going to, I'm starting a work week now I haven't actually gone on gotten offline at all of my own thinking and processing. So I went to another sound bath last night and it was awesome. It was so amazing. It was the same person who did it the last time, but definitely a little bit different in terms of the instruments that were used and the theme and I just, yeah. Find times to breathe and just exist because our brains really need them. So that's my Queer Joy is that yes, I did a lot of work, which is all great, but I also was able to reset before the work week. Keely: Cool. Well, my Queer Joy has been really, I think it's about what these different dynamics with different people has given me the opportunity to be reflecting on what I want. And it's not like a very specific Queer Joy, but it's more of a Ooh, fun, little exploration of what does Keely actually want. And I've been asked that multiple times and I even got the question last week. Are you emotionally available? I see the eye roll. Oh my gosh. I'm just like, I don't know how to answer that. And then I got like really vulnerable and like nervous and I don't know, but that does tie in with having spot Navy this weekend. And I had a really fun time randomly having something strange happened. And then. Spontaneously going to meet up with somebody and meet new people. And I, this is fun for me is walking in and I felt like this has been a theme. Sometimes it's Queer Joy for me. And. I walk into a place. I didn't, I knew one person and then they, they introduced me to their friends and I got to meet other queer people and hear about their relationships because I love hearing about other people's relationships. Authentically something I still enjoy even. I mean, I feel like doing this podcast. I enjoy it even more. Like it's just fun. And I just have to admit it. I've been watching Ultimatum and I finished Ultimatum this weekend and we don't get to find out till April 13. What... What happened? Melisa: There is the reason I haven't started yet. I've seen it. I haven't, no, I'm, I'm rewatching old, other reality TV shows. Rewatch until like, you know, the next one. Keely: Okay. You're when you watch, then we'll probably get out to talk about it because the one thing I will say before we wrap up our episode today is it's really interesting watching it from a poly dynamic, because I'm like, okay. So what you all are like trying to decide whether this is the one and then, oh, crazy. You find out that you can have feelings for two people at the same time. Melisa: Right. that was like, honestly, though, the last season of the Bachelor, which the more that I watched that show, the more like, it's like a horror show for me now. It truly is. And at the end, or like, I can't be in love with more than one person. I'm like, oh my gosh, it sounds so foreign to me now. I don't even know how to like, take this in. This is like, it's the train wreck that I can't look away from. Keely: Isn't that all reality TV is that we're due to like, we're driving slowly by the car accident. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, more to be discussed. I'm I'm talking about a little bit, my TikTok, so people want to hear more about my opinions of Ultimatum, you're welcome to please, please follow me and TikTok. Well, that's it for today. And definitely more to be said, but yay for another episode and thank you everyone for listening and, and following. Please. If you have a moment, it really does help us. If you can leave comments and rate us and, you know, give us good reviews. That's awesome. And otherwise, look forward to chatting again next week and hope you all have a Queer and Joyful week. Thanks for listening to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. A podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Keely C Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant. With the audio edited and produced by me, Cardinal Marking. Intro music is by Bad Snacks. Outro music by Victoria Instrumental. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify. Yes, you can review on Spotify now. Or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy, Collective dot com. For information on our workshops and for more queer joy, visit our website at Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.