Dating leads to marriage leads to kids. That’s how relationships move forward, right? UGH. How do we make progress in relationships outside of what we've been taught? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see the joy in queer relationships.
Relationship Smorgasbord: https://youtu.be/s8qG5EYh9J8
Our website: connectivetherapycollective.com/queer-relationships-queer-joy
FB & IG: @queer_relationships_queer_joy
Listen here:
TRANSCRIPT
ep 61
[00:00:00]
Melisa: This does kind of go into our topic today about how do we , um, progress relationships outside of the, the relationship escalator or whatever model, linear model that we have.
Keely: Hello everyone. Welcome back to your weekly dose of Queer Relationships, Queer Joy.
Melisa: Here we are again and I have some more joy this week. So
Keely: Good.
Melisa: Rest assured I'm bringing it up like a tiny bit from last week. Tiny bit. Tiny bit.
Keely: I, I feel like I oscillate sometimes not wanting to have this like toxic positivity vibe with the queer joy, but also being like we can find joy in even these small things that there's not this pressure. It has to be some big thing that happened in the week or a big event.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Or super new connection.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. All about [00:01:00] that realistic joy. Some days it's not realistic to feel like, you know, singing and skipping and.
Keely: I dunno about you, but for me, my life is a musical. So
Melisa: Most weeks last week. That was not my life. Last week it was, it was pretty dramatic.
Keely: Wait, have we talked about this? Have you seen the show? Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which by the way, there's lots of issues with that title. I know this. We can unpack that at another time, but.
Melisa: I have not.
Keely: Oh, Melisa. Okay. We won't go too much into it, but I've seen it twice the full series and it's such an interesting depiction of mental health and relationship when we've talked about some of the ideas around like love addiction, but also BPD traits.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: And [00:02:00] she is a musical theater person and the whole show is they come out and song and dance throughout the episode.
Melisa: Okay. I need to see it.
Keely: Uh, yeah. And so the main character, of course, it centers around her. And actually that's the first show that I watched that really normalized the idea of shame spiraling. They talk about shame spiraling. They have a therapist, which, I mean, there are things, I'm not saying please, anyone who's listening right now who has seen this show, I am not saying this is a perfect show. But I love, and I don't, I'm not gonna give a spoiler alert. But I will say, Melisa, you should watch it. And when you see the last episode, you are so gonna be happy with the last episode.
I
Melisa: Was like, we should talk.
Keely: Yes. You're, it's gonna be so, it's so your vibe, it's so your vibe.
Melisa: Amazing. Cool.
Keely: So people have seen it right in. Did you like this show? Was it, I mean, again, I don't think it's [00:03:00] the best depiction of mental health, but I think it's a really great depiction in a way that I've never seen before. Especially interlacing, uh, love relationship challenges with mental health.
Melisa: Beautiful.
Keely: So on that note.
Melisa: Let's do our introductions.
Keely: Should we? Could you imagine, Melisa, you and I doing, I could see us doing an episode, song, and dance.
Melisa: Oh my God.
Keely: Maybe just song, song. Okay working our way half our listeners. There are some big, big, big opinions about musicals.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. It's true.
Keely: Anyway, um, my name is Keely C. Helmick. I am a licensed professional counselor, certified sex therapist. I am queer, white, non-binary fem who owns Connective Therapy Collective, and am nonmonogamous and continuing to heal with the back injury.
Melisa: Yeah, [00:04:00] I thought you just meant heal like an Aldo. I'm like, aren't we all. It's like word, we're healing.
Keely: Yes, yes.
Melisa: But yes, physically as well.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: Yeah. And I'm Melisa DeSegiurant. I'm licensed as marriage family therapist and a professional counselor working at Connective Therapy Collective. I'm white, I'm bisexual. I am able bodied. I am polyamorous. I am polysaturated. I don't actually feel the word solo poly are super fitting. Right now, so I'm just poly and partner. I know updates. There's actually not like some huge update or anything attached to that, but I just, uh, I have been reflecting on that over the last week or so. And it, it, I'm moving out of that space. I'm in some very deep attachment based partnerships. I don't feel, let's put it this way, if I put a dating profile up right now, um, which it's always a little tricky depending on the, the platform I'm using because not all of them are really set up for [00:05:00] non monogamy to communicate like what your style is. Uh, but I wouldn't, in, in the past I've written something like, I'm looking for non monogamy and I'm single. And then below I've said solo poly with a few established connections. That's kind of my lingo that I've used. Now, I I, I wouldn't put that I was single. I would put that I was partnered. So that's my, I guess that was an update in my intro.
We, we'll get more updates. What are your updates? Keely. Let's get the attention off of me.
Keely: I mean, I, I think for once, I don't have a ton of updates. I think I'm really embracing the slowdown and recognizing in my slowing down, there's less going on. I mean, there's less, there's less activity in the sense of less attention, less interest.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: Noticing my ego when there's less attention or less likes or less. Um, For those that didn't, I don't wanna spoil too much [00:06:00] of the episode, but Multi Amory just had a great episode with a dating coach, a person who's been to, um, helping people for 15 years do coaching. And it's a lot of great hints. And one of the things that I took away from that episode was the idea of how we're trained. Our brains are trained, and not that the dating apps don't work with our brains.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: Cuz it's such a fast input that we're not like that. And then because we've been. For those that do social media with, which I would guess almost everyone who does dating apps probably does some kind of social media. And so we're so trained to be looking at like likes or focused on the amount of attention we get versus the quality of the attention and whether a person is a good fit. And so I've been thinking about that a lot and reflecting [00:07:00] on that quality over quantity.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: And then the other piece, the, the really nugget that I wanna say out loud to other people, uh, who may not follow that podcast or might not listen to it, is she talked about the dating coach talked about having a screening mechanism.
And so instead of just going right from matching with somebody chatting a little bit and then going on a first date, even if it's just, even if it's just a meetup and it's like a coffee meetup or a tea meetup, she actually suggests doing some kind of phone call or video chat or something for like 10 or 15 minutes before even doing the full meetup.
Melisa: Totally, totally. I know a lot of people that that do that. Uh, even if it didn't originally come because they had like, thought it was a great dating advice thing, but more because of like finances. Like, I'm not gonna pay to go out on a date with somebody if I don't know that we jive.
Keely: [00:08:00] Yeah.
Melisa: You know.
Keely: I'm gonna start. I, so I haven't done that and I was reflecting. I did actually. The first person I ended up being a relationship with from meeting on an app. They did. She did do that. She did do a phone call and then somehow I stopped doing that, or that wasn't the norm anymore for the meetups that I was having. I, yeah, I like that from my financial standpoint too.
Melisa: Right? Like just like. I gotta be picky and choosy about where I'm putting that money every month. Like I can't dates.
Keely: And don't you feel like you can tell. I feel like having that kind of voice contact for 10 or 15 minutes.
Melisa: It's just more information. For me, more information's always better. Yeah.
Keely: Okay, so I'm gonna try it these next couple weeks to be continued. Let's see if this is helpful.
Melisa: Let me, let us know.
Keely: Yeah, otherwise I'm still hanging with Main, Main and just kind of, I am very much looking for a primary partner [00:09:00] and to be partnered, which of course means that that's not happening because I am a little too eager for that right now. So again, to be continued.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Melisa: Well, like I said, I think shifts have been happening, but it's not like there's some like big. Update necessarily to share. Uh, I ha I've recovered from my bout of loneliness, that I was experiencing, uh, because of the shifts in frequency of seeing people in my life. Um, Got to like kind of rectify that situation last week, which helped a lot. Um, yeah. And have just, you know, it's funny because I think I'm feeling pretty detached at this moment from the hierarchy because I certainly don't have a primary partner that those words don't seem to apply to me right now.
Um, And at the same time, I also don't feel solo poly. So it's this weird, you know, this is, this is, I'm in that land where [00:10:00] labels aren't really helpful, , uh, cuz it's more than just a word or a label, but I am in attachment based relationships and, yeah, I don't know how to describe that anymore I think than I've already have, um, one thing that has helped I think in, and this, this does kind of go into our topic today about how do we , um, progress relationships outside of the, the relationship escalator or whatever model, linear model that we have. Um, one of the things that helped I think progress some of my relationships in the last week was really direct communication and conversation about things that are hard or that are not, uh, great or not working.
And it was brought to my attention that that seems to be an area that I struggle with is naming those things. And I'm like, ding, ding, ding. Yes. People pleasing tendencies. Uh, and especially because of a position in non monogamy, I can struggle with like, well, when does my opinion matter? Uh, you know, and, and part of this is because I do accept that there is a certain amount of discomfort I am [00:11:00] going to have to deal with to be nonmonogamous. Uh, and sometimes I just internalize all that and I deal with it on my own, and I independently try and manage that, which is great. I mean, self-regulating is an important skill. To be in close connection with people. We also need to be able to share what's not working or what's hard.
And, and part of that for me is having trust that the other person can hear that. So really hats off to, uh, my partner for making that space. And I was very verbal about, um, expressing my appreciation for that during and after that conversation. Cause that is a growth edge for me to be able to name those things and I feel a lot more seen and a lot more connected and a lot more safe. Like now we have a format to be able to be like, this really sucks and I don't like it. You know? Um, so I'm really grateful for that and it has shifted how I feel in my relationships.
Keely: Hmm. Lovely. Well, I find it interesting. Make a couple comments on what you said, not about you personally,
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: like the topic. Cause when you were talking, it made me think of some things. One of them being when there [00:12:00] is only a certain amount of time, a week that you're spending time with someone, I know that people have said it can be hard to want to talk about something serious or to bring in hard things.
Cause they're like, oh, I only get to see this person this one time this week, and I want to be quote unquote, just fine.
Melisa: Yeah, and especially in nonmonogamy, I'm like, I don't want our time to be processing all of our other relationships all the time. Like that's not, I'm here to connect with you. You know? And this is a long-term relationship and we've been in relationship for a while. And so if we never make space for those conversations, they're not gonna happen.
Keely: Yeah, and I feel, I, I feel sometimes it can go from not really having those conversations and then those conversation, it can ebb and flow and then those conversations take up a lot of time.
Melisa: Right? Yeah.
Keely: And being conscious about that and Melisa your check-in and updates really tie in very well with [00:13:00] our topic or one of our topics of the day, which is what does it mean or what does it look like to what's, I just lost my words. Like to move for-
Melisa: Like progress. I wanted to say accelerate earlier, but I hesitated cuz I don't know if that's really the right word or energy that I'm meaning.
Keely: Yeah, I mean, I'm not meaning that I know that things can accelerate.
Melisa: That's the word that comes to mind first, but I think what we're saying is more progress. How do we grow and expand in relationships?
Keely: How do we progress? How do we grow in a relationship outside of what we've been taught is the relationship escalator? What does it look like to progress a relationship even if you're monogamous, we're gonna be talking both about monogamy, nonmonogamy, but probably maybe leaning more towards nonmonogamy because this topic is so pervasive in nonmonogamy. Whereas monogamy, if you're just seeing one person, things will [00:14:00] progress but maybe not.
Melisa: Well, yeah, and I, I mean, we've said this before, . If you are monogamous, I would encourage you to stay tuned because I think the what, what we look at as maybe, uh, helpful initially, or, or it makes it easier, as my clients would say, for monogamous people to know what the next step is. That relationship escalator, I think it can actually prevent progression of relationships in certain ways.
If all you're basing the progress on is like, well now we live together, now we're getting married. Now we have a kid. Like, if that, if it's just about hitting these milestones, it may be that the, the emotional depth or the safety or it may be that none of that actually progresses, because all you're basing it is on like the external, like again, milestones or things that you've done together. Behavioral kind of things.
Keely: I would say in fact, that those often stop, those milestones can actually stop the growth.
Melisa: Right, right. I've talked about it [00:15:00] before where I had like a couple in couples therapy that stopped as soon as they got married. And again, like great, like you don't need to be in couples therapy if you don't want to. Like, I'm not gonna force anyone to stay. But it did have this era of, well, we're married, so I'm safe now. And I'm like, oh, but you could keep progressing. You could keep working on things. How about that as an option? You know.
Keely: Yeah. And what does progress, what does progression mean if you're not using these markers? I think people are looking for tangible descriptions.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Oh, I've been dating so-and-so for this many amount of years. And it doesn't feel like we're progressing.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: What does that look like? What does that feel like? How does that work? So if we're not de demarcating it by moving in, having children together, getting married, building, you know, buying a home together, [00:16:00] like all of these pieces, even even meeting parents, meeting friends.
Melisa: Integration thing, yeah.
Keely: Like what those, there can still be a depth and quality and progression to a relationship without all of those markers.
Melisa: Right? Yeah. And I think that's what we're wanting to talk about today is what are maybe give some people some like ways that relationships may progress, even if those markers can't be there. Um, But it is going to be really different for each person. That's the whole point is there's not a script, you know, and we get to decide what feels like progression and what doesn't. You know, it's gonna be different for each person. I guess what I would caution people on is if your default is the relationship escalator. If your default is, this is the only way things progress, and if that's not happening, it means we're not progressing. Check into that
Keely: Yeah, that's part of it is checking exactly. Is that it feels like you're more connected. It feels like things have progressed relationship, but then you're [00:17:00] doubting it because it, it's not hitting those markers or you're feeling the urge to put certain pressure on somebody or some people to hit those markers to feel more comfortable or to, to feel more part of mainstream society, if that's what people want.
Hey, Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes, buddy. People change podcasts change. A new change around here is our voicemail inbox. You know, those radio shows where you can call in, I guess this is the podcast equivalent. I like to invite you to give it a try. Call us at (503) 660-4409. Of course. The number is down in the episode description.
And tell us about your queer joy of the week or your queer sorrow. If you've got to get something off your chest. It'll go straight to voicemail [00:18:00] and you can remain anonymous if you like. I can't wait to hear from you all right. Back to the show.
Melisa: Yeah. And this, uh, I'm like not wanting to challenge necessarily our topic today, but this also feels like an important point, is this idea do, are we coming at this from the idea that all relationships should be progressing all the time? Like, is it okay for relationships to be stable and maybe not progressing in the way that we're talking about right now. And is that okay? Does that have to be a bad thing?
Keely: And what does stable look like? I also actually, what I thought of as soon as you said that, is the term comet and people who identify as having a comet in their life. So Melisa, do you know what a comet is?
Melisa: I don't know. I'm very interested in this.
Keely: So the terminology as I understand it, is a comment is somebody who is like in your life, but really just comes every so often. So the easiest way for me to think about this is like someone perhaps that [00:19:00] lives out of town.
Melisa: I was like, is this my long distance relationship? Is this what this is?
Keely: No, because you have regular check-ins with this person. This is more like someone that you just don't really regularly connect with, but when-
Melisa: So in and outta orbit.
Keely: Yes, in and out of orbit. So they come by and you have sex or you have this connection. And then they're gone again. And so, but they, I think the difference between that and like obviously a one night stand or a fling is that this is a person that is around and has come again and again.
But so I was thinking like that's a very valid, and I've heard from people who have this type of dynamic, it can be a really deep connection that only happens once or twice a year, maybe three or four times a year that, so I do definitely agree that that progression, the amount doesn't necessarily mean, uh, the depth, the amount of time you see [00:20:00] someone, and the depths. And also recognizing that we're, we're gonna talk about and we're talking about things that this doesn't have to be defining for everyone. It's more like, if you, like, I wanna bring up the relationship anarchy, smorgasbord, and that is if, if you are feeling like you want to have more depth or a certain type of quality to your relationship dynamic, or maybe you are wanting to hang out, maybe originally you were hanging out once a week or once every other week, maybe you're wanting to include an overnight now, if it is a scheduling based thing and you're wanting to progress more, what does that look like. But yeah, there's also that validity in in people wanting to stay status quo.
Melisa: Yeah, I mean, if a relationship is working for everyone, there's no one saying it needs to change or progress, you know, and actually a, a word that may be helpful [00:21:00] instead of progress. And actually it makes me think of, um, as you said, the relationship anarchy, smorgasbord is evolve. Progress still has this sort of linear forward motion feel.
And I think what we're talking about is more just evolve, grow, shift, change, you know, as, as they do, as we do as human beings. Uh, and what I like about the smorgasbord is it isn't linear, it's. Like we can evolve in all these different kinds of ways. We can take a look at what kinds of partners are we currently and where, where is it missing?
You know, maybe we're sexual partners but we're not really romantic partners, and there's like some romance in the air and we're feeling like into that part of our relationship.
Keely: For sure. And when you said that, thank you for that clarification and talking about growth and, and change and evolution versus progress. Because I just read a quote and I said this like right before we got on air was, oh, there's love is not a destiny. There's not, there's not this destiny in relationship. The only destiny we all know is that we're all gonna die. [00:22:00] So spoiler alert, we're all gonna die. So
Melisa: So end goal we're looking for with these relationships, we're just navigating them as they continue to change you.
Keely: Yeah, so if I think so, then I'm thinking about how, okay, there's one grouping of folks who may be thinking, I want to, I want to progress this relationship. I want to evolve this relationship in a more specific way. And then there's those that are staying more status quo, but also recognizing. Even if like if you have a relationship, you know, one of your partners you see weekly for years and years and it is the same amount of time, you as humans are still gonna evolve. So within that, even if certain things seem the same, we are constantly evolving. And that's what we talk a lot about with married couples is the idea that stability doesn't equal, not [00:23:00] evolving or not changing. That is a constant. And so I think there's these two pieces. And so I'd say, I wanna start off, since we've brought up the relationships smorgasbord, what is it for the folks listening or when people are thinking about, I want this relationship to progress and I'm not looking to slap on the label of living together or getting married.
Those types of things. But I do wanna see some progression that this relationship smorgasbord, and don't be fooled, it says relationship anarchy and it can definitely used for that. But when I think look at it, I think about, and when I think about actually relationship anarchy in general, I think about how humans get to be autonomous within connection. And so that's when I, when I see that wording in this work worksheet. So this can be used, but they have specific categories and using this as a tool when you wanna progress your relationship dynamic is looking at these different categories for yourself and then having a [00:24:00] conversation with your partner or the partner that you wanna do this.
Melisa: It's one of my favorite tools for relationship check-ins because like you said, you can do like the work in advance. I've had couples like go and highlight the the areas with one particular connection. And again, this could be like they're looking at a friendship that's totally platonic. So this is not just sexual partners, romantic partners, you know what have you, but they've highlighted the areas that they felt like they overlapped and that that, you know, encapsulated their relationship.
And it may have been like, you know, friendship or, uh, there's like a lot of emotional vulnerability. Or maybe they're like creative partners, you know, or business partners on top of that. And then come together and see where they've highlighted. Does it match? Are there areas where we're not in agreement about what our relationship is about? And can we talk about that? And if relationships are needing to shift, that's a good tool to show. Okay, we're gonna close off this bubble, but let's open up this one. You know.
Keely: Yeah. And so how outside of like looking to want to evolve [00:25:00] a relationship outside of the standard, okay. You can talk to a partner and be like, okay, I would like to see you more often, or have more overnights, or have more maybe trips or weekends together, more time. That is one way to have this conversation, but that's not the only way.
And in some non-monogamous and some poly dynamics, that may not actually be possible to see that person physically more often. So then when you look at the categories of the relationship smorgasbord, you're looking at, well, where, what would I like to add to this?
Melisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was gonna say the, the other piece of it that it kind of invites without saying this directly on the smorgasbord, but what it in essence is doing is helping us analyze what are the parts of me that this person is currently seeing, and are there other parts that I want to expose or invite them into If we become creative partners, that's a whole different side of me than [00:26:00] you're seeing as my sexual partner, you know?
Um, Those are the two that are in my mind cuz I'm a creative sexual person. So those are the ones I'm like focused on evidently today. Uh, but it's seeing those other sides and kind of to your point, Keely. For example, if I'm in a structure where I only get to see somebody once every couple weeks, instead of doing the same exact thing every time, maybe we can go to a class together.
Maybe we can, you know, find a different time in the day so we d see a different side of one another. Maybe there is integration that can happen where like I can invite a buddy for the first hour and you know, this person can meet one of my friends or something like that. Um, but it isn't always okay, more time.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the way you just set that Melisa, we're showing someone more parts of you. I mean, I know in therapy I won't go too much in that. There's IFS, but when you're sa, when you're saying this as parts and the smorgasbord invites this, if currently the partner that you want to evolve more with or [00:27:00] have this type of progression built intimacy. That's the other thing I think of is how can you include them in more parts of your life, or what parts of your life do you wanna include them in? And that may mean that you do, like you said, it might not be more days, but maybe you switch the day you see them or the time of day because you, if they're only coming over late at night, then they're probably not gonna meet your friends.
Um, most likely if you want them to meet your parents, they're probably definitely not gonna meet your parents. I know that people with kids, uh, will decide which partners who are involved with their kids and that definitely will, you know, if they have like split custody or co-parent when they, they may only see a partner when they don't have their children, and are they gonna switch the day?
Are they gonna bring their children into it? Because I think that's a big piece. That's a really big piece [00:28:00] of shifting a partnership, shifting a relationship dynamic. I mean, bringing in, yeah, we talk about bringing friends, but introducing your kids.
Melisa: Yeah, that'll, that'll, I mean, again, however you wanna say it, progress grow. That'll, that'll shift the dynamic that will change things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I don't know, there's just, it's kind of thinking outside. Well, it is, it's thinking outside of the relationship escalator, outside of the box, if you will, and thinking about, I think you sort of posed it this way, Keely, but what am I meant like, what do I want, what do I want this person to see of my life?
Um, part of what's important about that relationship anarchy smorgasbord is understanding that not one partner is going to fill all those bubbles. You might want someone to fill. And so you may have this idea that I want this person to progress with me in this way, and they may not be available for that.
And again, whether you're monogamous or not, there are other people who can fill that bubble for you. [00:29:00] So progressing also is not a solo event that happens in partnership and in community with other people, and not everyone is going to want or be able to join us in all of those areas.
Keely: Yeah, and we, and I think, so we're talking a lot about things bringing people, inviting people into different areas and thinking about where there's crossover. I'm also thinking about specifically folks that may have a DS relationship with somebody, and if that's strictly DS, um, domination, submissive, BDSM, what is it like to then switch over from just a DS dynamic to hanging out when you're not in that dynamic. If that's a transition that may really shift things.
Melisa: Totally, totally. Yeah.
Melisa: [00:30:00] With that, I think with everything we've talked about, one of the concepts that's coming to my brain is the idea of, of novelty and doing new things together. Whether that's relating in a new way together, whether that's literally going and doing an activity neither one of you have done.
We grow so much when we're like stepping intentionally outside of those patterns and habits that we've just gotten really comfy in. So it's changing it up a little bit.
Keely: And it's also vulnerability. It's also. Talking about evolving and showing a person more sides of ourselves. Well, that also includes how much are you talking, you know, not just sharing parts of your life, but how much are you talking to this person about your feelings, your emotions? How vulnerable are you with this person if you don't feel comfortable being vulnerable with them?
If that's something you want to shift and, and feel more comfortable being vulnerable, what do you need? I for instance, I've heard or some, one of the [00:31:00] things I suggest is even if it's a person that you only see once a week as vulnerability increases the opportunity to talk about aftercare. Aftercare, including check-ins.
So even if you're still only seeing a person the same amount of time, but does your communication in between hangouts. Is that changing? Is that increasing? Is the way that you're communicating, changing and increasing
Melisa: Right.
Keely: More depth in that part of the communication?
Melisa: Yeah, yeah. And if it's not, again, is that okay with you? Is that something you want to look at? Is that, you know, we don't have to just progress for the sake of progressing, um, but be intentional about it.
Keely: Yeah, and I think we've spent, I feel like I spent talking, you and I were just talking more about people that are looking to intentionally move that EV evolution, move that to I, you know. But then what if you don't? What if you wanted to just [00:32:00] stay? How do you allow for some evolution while, while being very clear that you want status quo to stay?
Melisa: Right? Yeah. Because as you said, we can't help the fact that change and evolution will happen, even if we're super satisfied with the dynamic as is. Things are just naturally going to change and evolve um, and to me, I mean, obviously all of this comes back to like communication, cuz it always does , but specifically with that example, communication about what's working and what you hope to preserve.
Like, Hey, I know other partners are gonna come in, or you're gonna get a job at some point and you're gonna be out of town, whatever it is. Here are the things that are really important to me. I wanna make sure we always laugh together. I wanna make sure, you know, like find those things that are priorities for you. Like I have to watch this one show with you. Just if we have to stream it together, like whatever it is. Again, whatever your tradition is, be specific about what you're hoping to preserve and then you can have an honest conversation [00:33:00] about, is that something we actually do get to control? And we can say, yes, we're committed to preserving this, or is that something that we actually can't control. And so we have to figure out how are we gonna navigate those conversations and then grieve together when that part of our relationship falls away.
Keely: Yeah, and I think it's interesting looking through non-monogamous, but I'm also thinking about people who are mainly monogamous, but maybe are dating right now and deciding how they wanna move a relationship forward and move from more of a dating several people, getting to know people and then realizing, oh, I want to shift and just be dating the one person and I wanna move this relationship forward intentionally.
Melisa: Hmm. Name it. You gotta say it. You gotta put it out there. Right?
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: I'm interested in moving this relationship forward. How does that sound to you? What does that look? Can we talk about what [00:34:00] that even means or looks like?
Keely: And everything we just said can be applied to that monogamous too, that can be applied monogamously.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And then I just thought of a third, I mean, there's probably many different scenarios, but I just thought of another scenario, which is, what if you're wanting more in a situation, the person or the persons that you're hoping to have more connection with or more time with, or evolve it?
It's just not a situation that they are able to, what happened, how do you figure out if you call it quits, that you're, you're actually not getting what you want out of this sexual relationship, this romantic relationship? Yes, we can talk all day about how we have many people in our [00:35:00] lives to, to support different parts of ourselves, but at the end of the day, there is something to be said, even if we're not monogamous, that sometimes there are situations we outgrow or evolve from shift from that was serving maybe even for many years and now you're like, oh yeah, I want more from a relationship and this is all I'm gonna get from this relationship.
Melisa: That's really important and part of what I have heard, again, regardless of relationship structure is this, well, maybe it'll change eventually. You know, and I, I go to the radical acceptance place here, and this is Bec, this is informed by my own life. And something I realized I was not doing, I was not radically accepting people as they were today.
I was accepting the version of them that I believe they could become according to my standards and my ideas of how they could grow and evolve.
Keely: Or the promises that they fed us or the promises that they're saying.[00:36:00]
Melisa: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I am the kind of person who sees like the best in people and what they could become. And I'd like to dream with people. So that's very much how I relate. Uh, but also if I am not accepting somebody for who they are today as is, how am I gonna accept them in the future as is when they evolve like we have to. That's where the mindfulness and present moment really becomes important. And the other thing is I don't get to dictate how people grow and change and evolve.
So I have to decide today, is this working for me? That's a choice I have to make every single day, you know.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: I can't control them, but I can control my relationship to them.
Keely: Yeah. And one of the hardest, I think it's really, really challenging when a relationship. Like nothing is going quote unquote wrong, but it just isn't [00:37:00] what you want anymore.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And moving beyond that, and again, so as we're talking about relationships evolving and shifting and changing, and being intentional about evolving it, we're also talking about our own cells evolving.
And we may be changing in a way. Separate or differently from the other person, and it doesn't always mean that there's something wrong and it can be really hard to change something if it's isn't wrong, or this person is actually just a really great person. There's still this really beautiful connection.
Melisa: Yeah. I've heard some of the, just the hardest breakup stories that were along those lines of like, I've had people say like, I wish they were just an asshole so I could just forget about it, you know, and move on. I wish I could be angry, so I, I, you know, we still love each other and we've decided it doesn't work.
Like that's so, it's hard. It's very hard and sometimes. Again, going back to that present moment, we can realize this isn't [00:38:00] working for me and I'm not ready to, I can't, I can't, I heard this from clients, I can't do it. I can't leave, I can't, I'm not ready to go. Like, Hmm, get rid of that can't, like, you know, right now you're not.
But also like, that's okay too. I don't wanna shame somebody and say, well, you must because it's not working, so you, no. Again, I don't get to dictate that. What I advocate for is be aware of what you're in. Don't gaslight yourself. Don't only listen to the one part of you that's getting one need met. Pay attention to all the parts of you and sit with that discomfort of like, I love this person and I feel stuck and I'm also not getting my needs met.
You have to sit with that all parts of it, you know, and that's uncomfortable to do, unfortunately, healing is about going through the discomfort, not avoiding it, you know, um, but it's okay. And I, I just wanna normalize and take some, some of the shame and judgment out of, if you're in a relationship that you know is not working, we can get rid of the judgment about why you haven't done anything about that yet.
But just be [00:39:00] aware of what you're in and what isn't working about it. And maybe even what is, cause those things will be important to know for future relationships.
Keely: Yeah, and I really do like, you know, as we wrap up this part of our conversation before I go to Queer Joy, I was thinking about. , I follow Shrimp Teeth on Instagram. If y'all don't follow them, they're great. Uh, and they have been talking about, they, they call like their different folks in their lives, buddies, that's the term they use.
And I find it really cute and adorable. But anyway, and so they had recently posted something about really the only thing that jives for them is relationship anarchy for their style because of the autonomous piece, but also the piece, which is what we're talking about, is this ever-changing and shifting way of being with people in our lives. And I think that it is really interesting that as we were just saying, [00:40:00] oh, if it, if it's not working for you, it's like, oh, a person. It may not be fitting what you want romantically and sexually, but there can be shifts to then a more platonic, or maybe they're like an artistic partner or a person that that works with you in a different way in your life.
And I think that we also have to be really honest with ourselves about what we want in the moment.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: And I think you and I have used ourselves as examples sometimes of this idea where a diff, I mean, we've said it very clearly. Even a year ago, I was in a way different place. You've talked about being in a different place.
So as human, we want different things at different times and we, and when it comes to sex, you know, we've talked about sex a lot. This year we're gonna keep talking about sex and you may have more or less sexual partners, or you may decide that now you wanna have sex more often when before you weren't. And maybe that [00:41:00] person that was your sexual partner or your specific sexual partners, you want more than that, but they, that's where they're at.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah,
Keely: And so you want, you know, maybe it's not shifting what those people already provide, but maybe you are bringing in more people.
Melisa: Totally.
Keely: It's not always evolution. I realize I said this at the beginning as a very, even sometimes I have to catch myself almost being trained monogamously. So we talked about how to move forward with somebody when you want the relationship to evolve.
And it also may just be that you're evolving as a person. And so that relationship doesn't necessarily evolve in a way, but that you bring in other humans. In a way that then is needing what you want.
Melisa: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The relationship dynamics may stay exactly the same, but because you have evolved something in the larger system is going to change to address [00:42:00] that. Yeah.
Keely: Yeah. And let's be real also recognizing, uh, time is a very valuable resource and we only have so much time in a day, in a week, in a year, in a moment. So being intentional, I moving forward, all of these things we're talking about is about intentionality.
Melisa: Yeah. And, and with time being fixed in fi, I hear this all the time in non monogamy, right? Like we can have endless love. There might not be a limit on that, but there is limited time, you know? And so I think that's a another reason to separate the idea that the only way to progress is to spend more time together.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Intimacy, connection, vulnerability can all increase. And that not always connected to how much time you spend with somebody.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: So on that note, check out. Uh, we will be posting the relationship smorgasbord workshop, [00:43:00] workshop? Worksheet. We're not doing a workshop for that worksheet. My mouth, I am not getting full words out today. The worksheet we'll post on maybe on, uh, social media, but definitely on our website. And otherwise now we get to talk about, I feel like that was pretty, maybe that was a middle ground topic. I don't think it was as depressing as other topics, but I don't know how joyful, but we get to talk about queer joy now because I don't know, was it a downer?
I don't know.
Melisa: I don't think I, I don't feel down. Maybe it was downer for someone. I'm sorry if we brought you down, but again, I think, I think. To be real, you know? Uh, I, I appreciate it. I think, uh, in hindsight, Keeley, I think you and I probably felt way more down last episode than what actually, you know, translated. Uh, but I wanna name that I appreciate we get to show up authentically here.
Uh, I hope our listeners appreciate that too. But it. It would be impossible for me to show up and like talk about relationships if I was not feeling, you [00:44:00] know, like, I don't know, I gotta, I gotta be a human, so thank you for the space to do that. Sometimes that means I'm having a bad week.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: Um, I will say, do you wanna go first because I, I think I have a queer joy, but I also wanna give my brain a moment while listening.
Melisa: Totally. Yeah, I had to debate cuz I have two this week. Um, but I'm gonna save one cuz sometimes I need, I need some more help.
Keely: Joy in reserves.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah. Keep my, my, yeah, my reserve of joy. Um. And I'm still debating, like even right now, I'm still debating which one do I wanna say. I'll say this one. I've said something about this before, like a long time, time ago, maybe even a year ago uh, and it's partially because I don't, the self-care I do not regularly engage in is buying myself clothing, , uh, [00:45:00] really my relationship with capitalism is a big focus of my life right now. So, but I, uh, just was feeling bored with my like few winter outfits. And so I got myself on Poshmark, which is a very dangerous, that's a dangerous app for me.
Uh, it's the app that I have to put like five screens away from the home screen, like in a folder, a couple swipes away. So I don't just go there without realizing I'm there, But the, the, the way that I was able to restrict my spending was, I'm like, you can buy one outfit. You can buy one full outfit, right? And so I bought this, like I'm wearing it right now, actually.
I bought this, um, it's a men's sweater and I, for some reason, it feels like it's way better quality than most of the sweaters I've ever purchased in women's department, uh, it's like hardy, you know? And it's just like cozy.
Keely: Are any of it shocked or amazed? It probably actually is better.
Melisa: It is, it's like a really good quality, but like Chee and also Poshmark, so it's used anyway. Uh, I got some jeans, which I'm [00:46:00] laughing because they're old. They're like older jeans, but they're like the boyfriend cut, which like is, was a thing for me when I was like, what, middle school or something.
Keely: Yeah. No, it's in style again.
Melisa: It's back. I know. I'm like, this is so funny. I'm old enough that like all the trends right, are coming back. And the funny thing is I hated them back then cuz they weren't like the bell bottom tight thing that I was looking for. And now I'm like, dude, if I knew I was queer back then, I would've rocked these jeans. So I'm like, really feeling it. That's my first pair.
Keely: That is, that just the Doc buying the Doc Martens and they're your first pair. That could full Queer Joy.
Melisa: I am so joyful and like it. It does make a difference. Like not every day is like a day that I'm driving with this look like I, I do. That's part of the gender fluidity is that I just like to present differently cause I feel differently and sometimes I like my presentation to not really have anything to do with my gender anyway.
Uh, But I have been really needing something that was a [00:47:00] lot less femme recently and it feels great. Uh, and I wore this, I actually wore this sweater when I went on a solo date recently. I went and saw a Harry Potter at the symphony, and I ha like some reason wearing this sweater and my little, my glasses are very round.
I'm like, I feel like Harry. And it's great. It made me so happy.
So that's my Queer Joy. It's like affirming, wear, affirming clothing.
Keely: I, Yeah. So, kind of in past, there was a social media trend that I really felt like Queer Joy to me, even though, but it was based on a sad topic, which is just, there was, um, on January 15th, it's the fifth year of the transphobia as a sin, which is hashtag transphobia as a sin, which is highlighting the damage of religion, how transphobic religion is and how harmful it is, especially for all trans folks, and especially for black, um, brown and indigenous folks.
And so the trend itself, the queer joy was seeing [00:48:00] these people holding up signs, especially like parts of clergy holding up these signs, saying things like, trans people are divine. And so like scrolling through because my feed, cuz I had posted something and so because it was part of the hashtag, I kept seeing this feed of all these like beautiful people with these things reaffirming how wonderful and awesome trans people are.
Like that was so lovely.
Melisa: Amazing.
Keely: it's just so happy, so, so happy. And, uh, so that was a Queer Joy. And I do wanna add a second one just because it's so cute. Um, again, I mean, it's cute, but then it also is kind of sad, but my, my daughter, uh, one of her best friends identifies as a lesbian and we were talking about dating or whatever, and, and it's cute and sad because she's out my daughter, she's out to me, but she's not out to her parents. And so the Queer Joy in that is that I get to be a safe [00:49:00] haven for teens to talk about queerness and transness
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: My home. And so like, and I probably said a Queer Joy similar to this before, but it's gonna continue to be a queer joy for me, especially because my children of this age now, to get to be that, to get to be that adult that you can talk about being gay.
You can talk about being non-binary. You can talk about being trans. You can talk about crushes and sex and safer sex and all these different things.
Melisa: Amazing.
Keely: And be there and just, it's so, it's just really cute hearing these little teens talk about, I shouldn't say li- by the way. My child is like five 10. So when I say a little, I'm not actually talking physically
Melisa: Young. Young
Keely: These young people today. It's amazing. It's wonderful, amazing, beautiful. So joyful.
Melisa: Amazing. I love it. That's so important.
Keely: So on that note, [00:50:00] awesome, love. I, I thoroughly enjoy doing these podcasts and I get really excited and kind of sad at the end.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: I love ending on a, on a joyful note. And for those, uh, we can do the spoiler now because it's coming- we are really super excited to be interviewing Lucy Fielding, so look out for that.
She is the author of Trans Sex, so check out her book, uh, check out her Instagram, check her out because she will be on the podcast in a couple weeks. So look, look to that. I should have, I could have added that. Dang it. Now done like three queer joys. Anyway, y'all are great. Thank you for following us. Please let us know, questions, thoughts, anything you want to see change. Otherwise, have a queer and joyful week.
Cardinal: [00:51:00] Thanks for listening to queer relationships, Queer Joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Keely C. Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant with audio edited by Ley Supapo Bernido. I'm a producer and behind the scenes, buddy, Cardinal marking inter music is by bad snacks. This episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at media at Connective Therapy. Collective dot com.
Follow [00:52:00] our Instagram at Queer underscore relationships underscore Queer underscored joy, and find more resources on our website. Www dot Connective Therapy, Collective dot com slash queer relationships. Queer Joy. It's a lot of links. Just check the episode description. All right. Love you. Bye.