The Queer Joy Podcast; two relationship therapists exploring what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
Learn how to navigate your exes from both a monogamous and non-monogamous framework, co-parenting strategies around the holidays, and how exes are like cats.
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TRANSCRIPT
Keely: Is it even really about that other person or is it what that relationship represented? Melisa: And how it felt to be in connection versus not, or, you know, there's a lot of other things that could be available if we don't react right away. Keely: Like, Ooh, let's make this feeling go away Hello everyone. Melisa: Welcome back to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. Keely: I'm one of your hosts, Kelly C Helmick I'm, Melisa De Seguirant. And I will introduce myself really briefly. I'm trying to get down to really brief. I'm Keely C Helmic, licensed professional counselor. Co-owner of Connective Therapy Collective. My pronouns are they/them/she., I am a queer sex therapist. I am white, gender fluid, gender queer. Non-binary. Queer solo person. Melisa: How about that for an introduction? I am Melissa. I am a white, bisexual polyamorous person, genders TBD. We're working on it. You can use any, any pronouns right now. Um, But I think I'm discovering maybe more. Not so cis? Not so cis. That's my gender. Keely: While I was trying to get her to record the very beginning. She was like, I can't not face my queerness when we're on this podcast Melisa: I can like be like pleasantly oblivious sometimes. And then we sit down and like, oh no. Okay, here we go. Keely: All the feelings, all the feelings really brings us. We're going to chat for a minute, but I think part of this episode and why. Well, we started talking about this is because it is the motherfucking holidays and there are all the feelings, all the feelings going on. Melisa: Old feelings resurfacing coming back up. Yes. Keely: The Melisa: Exes the exes. We're here to talk about exes. Keely: We're here to talk about exes. So people have been contacting me. People have been contacting my roommates, so it's not just the queers. Now my roommate's straight. So I got confirmation is just not the queers because three of my roommates friends have also had the exes contacting them, in the last week. Coming from everywhere! Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So now we're like, okay, let's talk about what this looks like for us and how do we support people through this? Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. How do, how do we deal when we're contacted? As we're saying this, I'm like, Ooh, I was, I reached out, I did it, I did it. You did it. It wasn't in like a, Hey let's process, our relationship, but it was like, Ooh, I feel like I want to reach out. Like, let me send you a funny meme, you know, Keely: And we're not here to shame the reaching out. I'm not here to shame you. It's more. What is this really about what are some boundaries? What are some boundaries, part two, some strategies, and really recognizing what to do with this, what to do with the feelings, what to do with the thoughts and how to really be aware within our bodies, what we're feeling when this is happening. Yeah. And make really informed, intentional decisions, Melisa: the mindfulness thing. It's how do we just give ourselves a little pause to check in and be able to, as you said, be intentional be responding maybe to feelings without being reactive. Yes. Keely: Responding instead of reacting. Yeah. So how do we do that? Melisa: We pause, we take a breath. Like we have to acknowledge, we have to be able to see the feeling to even. Anything beyond that we have to be like, well, I'm having a feeling. Keely: Yeah, I think. And so recognizing what happens in our body when we get that phone call or text is the first as the first start. So I saw a text and my stomach hurt and I felt very fluttery and wanting to vomit and run. So to me, if that's the feeling I'm having, I pause. And I do definitely do not text anything back. And then you have to look through the process and think, what, how do I want to respond to this? And another piece of this that you and I were talking about was from a poly dynamic even if we're poly, you don't have to remain friends with everyone. Right. Or this pressure that like, oh, because I'm poly my current other partner partners, don't navigate how I interact with exes. Melisa: Yeah. And finding closure. It's just interesting. It's more, it's just more detailed, I guess, in a poly dynamic, based on that, based on. You know, we've talked about the community being small. So if you don't want to be friends, then how do you navigate being in the same circles? And that may or may not change how you respond to getting a text message. But even, I mean, gosh, even from an monogamous standpoint, I was saying this before. There were certain exes that I really didn't have any contact with after the relationship. And some of that was dictated over my, or by my monogamous relationship status. Keely: Yeah. So I think that when we're navigating this, we're talking clarifying, not that people that are monogamous can look at it in a poly way, but that there are these different expectations. From monogamous and non-monogamous folks. And there's a lot less expectations in some ways from the non-monogamous. Or like it's like, you're almost trying to figure out how to say this because I float, I go in between, I've been in monogamous relationships. I've been in non-monogamous relationship. So have you, and it's so glaringly, different, being solo or single. Or non-monogamous and being monogamous. Yeah, because almost like in monogamy, you're forced or told what to do. Melisa: You can be, I mean, that's for me. I'd like to see some healthy representations of monogamy where that's not, and we have we've interviewed, right. Some people that's not the case, but I definitely Keely: know there was a couple that's monogamous with Melisa: that. I've definitely had that relationship dynamic and I have felt that way as a monogamous person. So I don't want to just put it on like people I've dated. Oh yeah. For me, it comes to this possessive. Insecure. I need you not to talk to anybody that you dated. No funny business and really what is that? It's my own insecurity and my attachment stuff. And it's also a lack of trust of the relationship. Yeah. So I don't know that that has to be the case, but it has been a dynamic and most of my monogamous relationships. So yes, that does seem to happen. Not that it doesn't happen in non-monogamy no. But it's just, if it does feel different. Keely: Okay. So if we go, who start from the beginning, which we are now, I mean, driving to work today, I was thinking we are in the THICK of holiday season. It's like real now. So all the texts are coming in the past week or so. So first things first, what do you do when you get the text? You pause, breathe, breathe. Melisa: Maybe take a walk, take some friends. Keely: You can not believe who just texted me. Guess who just called me? Yeah. Right. Melisa: This is something that I do myself and I do with clients with any kind of decision-making like, once you pause... okay. If your, if your decision is I'm either going to respond or not, for example, okay. Let's pretend like you're going to respond. How do you feel about that? What feelings comes up from that? What would you want to say and what feelings come up from that? How about the reverse? If you don't respond, how does that feel? You know, and it's like really trying out these options in your system from a somatic perspective before again, you make a decision. And Keely: I say, don't respond for least... I mean, I used to try to wait hours, wonder who's listening right now. And like I would say at least 20 minutes, because when we have feeling, if, if getting a text or phone call and you've worked on call, I guess you get, or an email from an ex. And you notice a reaction, when we have strong feelings in our bodies, they will subside between 15 and 20 minutes. Sure. Like that's mindfulness research. Now you can keep stoking the fire and keep the feelings going. But if you're mindful of that emotion and then you go for a walk or do all the things that we just suggested, Melisa: you don't attach to the emotion, you let it just kind of flow on Keely: 15 to 20 minutes. It's kind of gone down. Yeah. So then you have, your brain is a little more. Online, Melisa: like taken a little chill pill and the prefrontal cortex that does all of our, you know, critical thinking reasoning, logic that comes back online. And then we can find that wise mind in-between spot where they. Where, where does the emotional mind of the rational mind meet? That's straight up DBT, but I love that model. Keely: Well, yeah, for sure. So, and we're also saying like, feelings are coming up and it's okay to feel these feelings. So we're talking that first strategy is about if you're the person Melisa: receiving it, right. Or if you have the impulse to reach out, you could do the same strategies and like, Ooh, man, I really want to send this and I've done this because I have like memes that I'll send to my ex-husband, especially, but exes. And for me, I don't want to get into such a place that I'm like really trying to manipulate and play the game of how long do I wait and send. But at the same time, if I respond every time I have an impulse, I'm going to be blowing up these people's like social medias. I don't want to have that kind of a relationship, any of these, I don't want to be that close. Um, So yeah, you can do the same thing. Take a pause. Ooh. What am I feeling? Am I feeling I need to be seen? Is it a part of me that's like missing connection that I just need to be connected again? Like what's going on for me. And how do I want to address that? Keely: Yeah. And thinking about what it is you want from it. There's so many little quotes and memes and things that are talking about this right now. And one of the things is, you can miss somebody and you still don't have to text them. Right. Or they can miss you. And they still don't have to text you. And what is the work around it? And this looks different too, for people that have been broken, like separated for weeks, months, years at the strategy can be the same, but it does look a different way too. Because recognizing what am I going to get out of it? Right. If I respond to this person, or if I reach out to this person, what am I, what am I looking for? What am I wanting? And I think the difference is if it's a recent breakup, is it, I mean, you might be getting back together. Or is it that you're still in a lot of grief and you haven't moved through it. Are you wanting to be a friend? Melisa: When we have that emotional response, we're responding to our own experience. We don't know the experience of the person on the other end. Don't know why they're reaching out and, and, and, and then if we're the ones wanting to reach out. Take some time, number one, to know what you want, but also to understand that what you want may not be available, like, think about where the other person is, you know not to say that should dictate our behavior, but there is this room for being empathetic or at least aware that our experience is not the only experience. Yeah. So just because I want to reach out and I need this and I've done all my work and I really decided, yes, this is right for me. It may be still incredibly invasive to my ex who may be in a completely different place. And how do I then hold space for them to be like, Nope, not interested. Keely: Yeah. And that's the boundaries piece that we're talking about is recognizing that we want to honor someone else's boundaries. If we're the ones that if, if I'm the one wanting to reach out, why stepping back? Why do I want to reach out what is my intent? And then wait a minute. I don't know where they're at. Right. Melisa: That person may not respond. And that is okay. That is within their right there. Their job is not to take care of my needs or wants let's frame those as wants in this case, especially. And I, and I don't want to say that to say, like, don't reach out but maybe don't do so in a way that's manipulative or that assumes one sort of response. Keely: I suggest to people to have some kind of separate journal or notebook, or even you can even just use the. notes,in the notes app in your phone, when you have that urge to reach out what happens if you just write it instead, write it in a notebook, write it in a journal, type it up in your phone. And what happens if you don't send it to the person? Because like you said, it really is about you. If you're wanting to reach out it's about you. Melisa: I think it's a great practice and it gives you time to do the action in a way, but that's in a safe container and then lets you process like, okay. What's even like with what I, what I, the example I gave earlier of like funny means like there is the amount of time that I am on social media, looking at funny memes, like yeah. I think about people all the time. And one strategy for me could be creating the folder where like, Hey, these are the memes I think so-and-so would be funny. And then I put them in the folder and I don't send them every single day, you know? And maybe then I decide, okay, let's look through this folder. And here's the one I really want, you know? Um, But making sure that we're taking ownership of our own process and not making somebody else's job to help us in our process. Yeah. Keely: Also taking time to look at what's going on with you beyond the urge to reach out to an ex or the urge to respond to an ex is looking at what is going on in this time? And what's really coming up? Because I think there's a sentimentality piece. And then also, like we talked about in a previous episode, which we're all confronting as queer folks is what's going on with our own family. And so is it that we're reaching out because we want to connect with our ex partner or are we reaching out because last year we had a person? And we don't, if you don't have that connection with your family and your ex was your family. Then what can you do to nurture that sadness? That grief that's coming up? Yeah. Yeah, because I don't know. What, when you think about that, when you think about the dynamic of this time of year, it feels shoved down our throats. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And I like what you're saying, because it is, it's getting, it's like that image that people use for mental health all the time about the iceberg and how some of the emotions are right at the surface or above. And then there's this whole well of stuff underneath. And that's kind of, I hear what I hear you saying that the impulse to reach out maybe, like above, that might be like the tip of the iceberg you can see, but below it is like grief. You know, all these other things that they may not even be about that relationship. It may just be general. Keely: Yeah. You Is it even really about that other person or is it what that relationship represented? Melisa: And how it felt to be in connection versus not, or, you know, there's a lot of other things that could be available if we don't react right away. Keely: Like, Ooh, let's make this feeling go away, you know? Yeah. And all this family stuff gets kicked up again, the attachment stuff. And then also it's cold outside. I mean, let's be real, like a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people just want to have someone to be at home, with and cuddle with. And our dogs and cats only get us so far in the cuddling department. Melisa: It's true. They have boundaries too. I haven't hit them. Keely: Whoops. I love with my roommates holding the cats so hard. And the way the animal set boundaries is though we don't pay attention to it is they'll dart, their heads away. Like they make it very clear when they're like, stop holding me, leave me the fuck alone. And you're like, oh, what cuddles cuddles? Melisa: No respect their boundaries too. Keely: Yeah. And let's be real cats pay way more attention to us when we ignore them., yes, that's true. Melisa: Yeah, when I'm on my computer trying to write notes, Keely: but isn't that like an ex I'm like, that's probably like me, you know, you're not paying attention or like you're, you finally have that moment where you're like, so absorbed in something else you haven't thought about your ex and however long. And then you're like, ah, What, what, what is going on? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You know, the other, Melisa: your ex is like a cat. Yeah. Where exes are like cats. Keely: That's the, that's the takeaway. No, I was going to switch gears a little bit and not something that you would have more experience with than me., but also thinking about when there is a relationship with an ex co-parenting. Melisa: For example, there are folks who are in contact with their exes, regardless of how that emotional relationship is. And I've worked with people who have, you know, a very friendly amicable relationship with exes and co-parent kind of seamlessly amazingly and others were super duper challenged. So just, and especially holidays custody arrangements, like all of that, I've noticed in a lot of sessions coming up as being really big stressors. So it's not a question of, do I reach out to my ex or not, but it's how do I set boundaries when I need to, how do I advocate for myself? I don't have any of those answers. I know that that is a thing. Keely: We want it to all the parents out there. So I, well, first off I do have experience both personally, but then also working with clients for many years. And I am really fortunate. So that's, I do start with that, that I text regularly. Like some of my kids friend's parents are like, wait, you still talk to their dad. And I'm like, well, yeah. He's like, oh my gosh, I can't do that. I think it also helps. Like, let's be real. And he has said this many times, like I'm super gay. I've always been gay. I identified as bi when we first got together. And so. There's not the same or he expresses not having the same hard feelings as other couples do. But for those that don't have that kind of relationship that, and even so it's still, it can be trying at times. I think, first of all, obviously like just with everything we're talking about is having that awareness from the beginning, but then , starting with ourselves. Validating if feelings are coming up, that's real. Even if it's been, even if you have been separated for years, if you're having feelings that come up that's okay. And being aware, like you said earlier, really checking ourselves to not use the children in manipulative ways. And so, and putting the children in this sense, we talked about ourselves and like checking in with ourselves, but really putting the kids' best interests at heart. Like if it becomes a conversation about a holiday and maybe either you have, you don't, maybe you didn't do a formal parent agreement. Like a lot of people don't do formal law agreements because the laws aren't always supportive, especially of queer folks and trans and non-binary folks. So if you don't have this formal agreement to go back to, it's having a conversation about what's best for the kids, right? What do the kids want? You know, and I had, and we have to put our feeling our own with parents. I'm like be in your feelings, being your feelings, but with kids, you're like, oh, I gotta put my feelings aside for a little bit, or have my feelings with other feelings. One of my children was like can we trade holidays? I know you have us this day. And I was like, at first I could feel myself reacting. And I was like, what? I mean, I don't really like Christmas, but you don't want to do anything on Christmas. But then I checked myself. And when I was curious, I realized that the reason why is because. Or her dad, her other parent is changing houses and the houses that he was living in with the kids which is his Nana's, who just passed away, died recently. It's that house. They want one more Christmas at that house. It wasn't even, it wasn't about me. It wasn't about what they want. So we arranged and I said, okay, W, you know, we made an arrangement and we talked about it, but the piece is that yes. There's emotions. Yes. We have our own reactions when we pause and then reflect and think about it from our children's perspective and what's best for them and continue to have support and our whole lives that are not kids. Yeah. Melisa: Yeah. And support for your feelings. Like, you know, we do that as therapists or like we'll have a feeling in the moment and then we're literally trained to be like, oh, check that, put that right there. And I'll come back to it after a session, but then come back to it. Yeah. Don't just check it and like repress it and like, look, I don't have a feeling now. Like get it off the shelf. Look at it. Talk to your friends. Like, you know, do your own therapy.. Keely: Yeah, I think all of this comes back to, and that's, that's, what's hard is we're talking about how do you set boundaries, but also still have your emotions. Where is the space that you're having these emotions, but not reacting to these emotions, Melisa: the slowing down, as we've said, the breathing think about grounding. Just pay attention to what happens in your body when you're triggered in general. For me specifically, and I know for a lot of my clients, it turns out to like locking out the legs and getting really tense in the body. So if we can literally bend your knees, drop down a little bit, like recenter under yourself. Feel the bed like the back, the small of your back. If you're sitting down in the chair, those kinds of things take me literally back in my own body, versus like this like urge like responding. That's like literally coming out I'm like trying to jump out of my own body to like resolve an emotion. Oh yeah. No, sit back. Feel it, which is really painful, but we can feel emotions even strong ones. And then yeah. Then journal, what do you have to do to like, let those feelings live? So. Keely: Yeah. I was also just thinking about how we hold all of these things and just notice it and be curious about it and it's okay. Melisa: And it's okay. Even if we react, even if we go against what we've said and we react, right? Like let's have some grace as well, or you just hook up with an Keely: ex whatever. I'm not saying I did that!. whatever it happens. Melisa: Of course it happens. There's just so many clients were like, God, sex is so much better now that we're not like, Melisa: Yeah. But like, yeah, if you, you know, if all else fails, you just react, you get to reevaluate and decide what you want to do going from there. Like it's okay. Let's have some grace. We are human. It happens. That's okay. And if you decide that you don't like what happened and you would rather do things differently next time then. Okay. Like we get to unpack that and maybe have some new strategies in place. Keely: And I think I was just reading something that's really lovely. And I do like to think about how this season, how we reflect on this time of year as what culturally tells us, which is like capitalism and when we're in nature. And when we reflect on animals and nature, what they do, what happens on mother earth during this season? And we're really pulled to be in a different way than what nature intends us to do. Right. So nature intends us to like buckle down, hibernate, you know, gather and slow down, rest more and be more in our bodies and serve conservation. And yet capitalism drives us to do something completely different. We're all moving. We're going fast. We feel like we have to, we have to connect and talk to every person we have to buy those presents and do those activities and socialize so much. When we try to reach out when an extra tries to reach out to us, or we try to reach out to an ex. How has that almost like we're looking to anchor to like, they used to be our person. Are we wanting to have that anchor because everything kind of gets chaotic. Melisa: Like, what's the thing that I know. Yes. Let's go back to that. So everything else can feel okay for stable. Keely: Yeah. Because we're trying to pressure ourselves to be a certain way during this time. And so if we do slow down, we do hibernate. Or, you know, as we're saving you, just like pause and think about it. The thing is we can take more time and maybe we just respond later. Or maybe what if we don't text or reach out till after the holidays. Right? Why don't we just sink into our feelings and journal a little bit? And if we have feelings of wanting to connect with an ex. We look kind of spend some time with that relationship and our feelings that are connected their relationship, but don't actually reach out to that person. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Melisa: Wait on it and see what happens next. Your feelings may change. They may not, but you'll know you'll have the space to know how things are evolving. Keely: So is that what we're saying? It's like pause and wait. Yeah. It's like, Melisa: hibernate on it. I tell people this again, just about decision-making when clients come in and they're like, I'm so conflicted, you know, sometimes. That w through just talking about it, that conflict can kind of be resolved and people walk away like, okay, I'm clear on like what I want to do, but more often than not, I'm telling people like this is probably not the time to decide. So wait and hold that tension of opposites and those two opposing things you want to do, you know, wait and see what other option emerges. Keely: All right, so just wait, just wait! And last thing, do we block? Oh, that Melisa: is a good question. Yeah. Do we block people? You know, I tried to, as we first surface this question, think about like, what do I do? But it's been different for every relationship. The only time I have blocked someone on social media, like they can't find me is when I felt there were inappropriate gestures towards me. Like this was more, a long time ago, but in the context of monogamy, when my ex was in a monogamous relationship and reaching out to me in a sexual way and or I really miss you, and I really felt so disrespectful to the relationship they were in, not what I wanted. That's when I was like, I'm just going to take, like, if I'm a trigger for you, we're just, you're not going to get triggered anymore. So you're not going to find me I'm gone. Keely: Okay. So we have some options first and foremost, with any kind of decision we're saying pause, I'm saying to hibernate on it. I'm saying wait until after the holidays, but even if you can pause for like 20 minutes, thinking about your intentions, think about. Other people, if you're dealing with your ex who's also the other parent of your child or children really being conscientious of how you approach that and thinking about the kids, not just the ex. And yeah, blocking is an option. Melisa: And even if it's not blocking that way, it may be blocking yourself from the cues. Getting rid of pictures on your phone. Holidays can be hard again with music. I mean, music in general, it can be hard cause it's just so much emotion and memory. But holiday music for some people triggers certain things and remembering past relationships. As much as you can be mindful of like what triggers those feelings for you and maybe if you can avoid or minimize them. Great. Keely: Yeah. And if you have, if you do have a strange relationship with your family, you find yourself reaching out to your ex because they're the ones that understands. Like be kind to yourself show self-compassion that that's a normal response to want to reach out to them. And are they actually available for that support right now? Or is it that you're just looking for that and are there ways that you can feel that connection? Are there other people that you can reach out to when you're feeling that that desire for connection? Yeah. And sometimes it is just like, it just really sucks. Melisa: Yeah. I was just going to say, sometimes you need to just grieve and it just sucks. Like we get, like, let's not avoid grief. It doesn't help, it Keely: doesn't help and assessed. And even if you felt like you were over it or that you've been quote unquote moving on or whatever, that means it is normal to have grief, resurface sadness resurface during, in holiday. Melisa: So, but there's another side. There Keely: is true. And maybe that's what we'll be talking about sometimes in our season two next year, who knows? Yeah. Shifting to queer joy. Yeah, let's go there. Yeah. Do you have a queer joy? I was trying to think it feels very similar to what I've said before, but I don't care. I'm just to say I went out dancing this weekend and it was so marvelous. I was out at Slay and it's this super queer space with this awesome dJ's and I do feel my age Melisa: in this space as a result of dancing? Keely: Maybe both. I will say like, I there's such this beautiful expression and freedom on the dance floor. And just to be walking in, it's just so queer and just feel so good. And all this like holiday crap that we're talking about just kind of goes away. And I was with a group of queers as well. I brought like four other friends with me. And so that was really awesome. And. Again, I know I keep saying this and listeners, if you just want me to shut up, please like text, not text me DM, be like you can't talk about being solo. Yes, but it was the first time I've been out dancing solo. So everything is like this new experience as a solo person and some of it's great. And some of it brings up emotions and doing all that. Melisa: It's like queer joy and queer and embodiment you're talking about that with being in it, like a safe space to dance as a queer person, surrounded by other, you know, it's great. And Keely: oh my God. Because it was so queer. So gay, I ran into my best friend's ex wife, who I haven't seen in six years. And the joy was seeing her. I felt really funny cause I was with the masks. I didn't realize. And I was kind of checking her out and then I was like, oh shit, wait, what? But it was a really serendipitous, beautiful thing to run into this person. Not having seen them forever and now seeing them in this like fun space and yeah. And yes, Portland is very good about masking. We were all masked it's amazing. It's really cool. So what's your queer joy of the week? Melisa: I laugh because I know we've, we've said this on a few episodes where like it's not queer because it's stereotypically queer. It's cordial. I just cause you're a queer person, but I feel like mine are Keely: like, yeah, Melisa: cats and plants. RuPaul's drag race. Crystals well, that's always been, it's always been. No it's TikTok. I found, I knew it was like years ago. I was like, oh, that's a bad idea for me. I should like, especially when Instagram started, started infiltrating. Yeah. I was like, Ooh, I could get lost in there. And I, I did. I did! And it was. If you don't think that TikTok is a queer experience, your, your space just looks very different than mine. You should see what I was watching!Yeah. So, oh my goodness. And like the whole gender queer gender fluid, I'm like. Maybe there's a reason I was avoiding list. I wasn't ready to go there yet. And now, now we are so welcome to the ride of my identity. It was great. I don't, I'm not mad at TikTok, but I do need to find some boundaries Keely: when I, when it's, when it's in my life, Melissa. When you have the urge to get on TikTok three, take a breath and pause for 15 or 20 minutes! Melisa: Fine some other spaces to go to instead. Oh man. But there's not enough queer representation in other spaces, there's still so much, you know, Yeah, it was, it was great. I had a wonderful weekend on Tik TOK. Keely: Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks to you all again for listening today. Thanks for following us on Connective Therapy Collective dot com, Instagram, all the platforms, and I hope you all have a wonderful queer and joyful week. Thanks for listening to queer relationships, queer joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective hosted by Keely C. Helmic and Melissa DeSegiurant. With audio edited and produced by me, Cardinal Marking. Music is by bad snacks, Otis McDonald, and OfShane. Sound effects from free sound. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our website at www dot Connective Therapy collective dot com. Love you bye!