How do you tell the difference between healthy conflict and toxic conflict? How do you navigate healthy conflict with your partners? When do you have that conversation?
Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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TRANSCRIPT
ep 51
Keely: Our discussion today can help people clarify more the difference between when there's conflict and when there's power and control and interpersonal violence and set the stage up for having more healthy conflict with your partner. More discussions that, that are disagreements, but that aren't emotionally violent or verbally aggressive
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Hey, it's Cardinal Quick Content Warning. As you may have guessed from that intro, this episode discusses interpersonal violence and abuse. We don't use any detailed descriptors, but we do mention specifics like getting yelled at, just so you know.
All right, back to the show
Melisa: Hi everyone. Welcome to Queer Relationships Queer Joy.
Keely: Yay, welcome. It's another, oh my gosh, I can't believe it's November.
Melisa: Yeah. And it's cold, at least in Portland. , it's cold.
Keely: I know what happened. I feel like it went from like summer.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: To now we're talking about the holidays, where's the in between?
Melisa: I totally agree. There's been a lot of whiplash energetically and seasonally.
Keely: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, I was talking to one of the people I date and they were saying how they really like the colder weather. One good thing about the colder weather is they can wear bigger clothes. So it becomes a gender thing for them that they get to have more comfort in that as well, so.
Melisa: Totally amazing.
Keely: So we're gonna talk about conflict and positive conflict, or how to have conflict in a healthy way.
Melisa: We're here to normalize conflict in relationships.
Keely: Yes, and differentiate it from the word toxic relationships and abuse and abusers gets tossed around a lot. And this isn't by no means, to say that there isn't abuse that happens cuz there is, and in fact, in queer relationships is often under-reported.
So we're not here to say in any way that that's not a real thing. But we wanna explore a more wide variety of experiences that may not feel good, but what, what is that difference? What is conflict? How do you navigate healthy conflict with your partners? And how do you identify maybe some signs that there is some more abusive patterns?
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Introductions & main topic
Melisa: We need to do introductions
Keely: it's
like total strangers. Isn't it easier to talk to strangers sometimes? Yes.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Well, my name's Keely Helmick. I am the owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a white, non-binary queer, fem. I am. Getting a little, my, my update on my injury is that it's getting a little better at a cortical shot. I'm starting to feel semi human again. I got on the Peleton for 10 minutes. Amazing. And yeah, I, I don't even know if I identify, like technically I'm kind of solo poly, but like, I don't know. I think it's better to just say poly because I've been reading some stuff, some differentiation of like, more like, I would say dating nonmonogamously because being solo poly is different than dating nonmonogamously. And I wanna differentiate
Melisa: Right.
Keely: So I think at this point, maybe there's a time I was doing more of the solo poly thing, but I'm dating nonmonogamously for sure.
Melisa: Yeah. I like that distinction. Yeah. And I'm Melisa DeSegiurant. I am licensed as a marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor working at Connective Therapy Collective. I am white, I am bisexual. Able bodied. I am polyamorous. I would say I am solo poly at the moment, I imagine that will change in a couple years. I think I said it all. Oh, and I'm gender fluid. I use she and they pronouns.
Keely: So yeah, the topic of conflict and interpersonal violence. I think that with the stress of the holidays, it can actually bring up more conflict for folks.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And with the pieces around seeing family, or even if you're not seeing family, there's still these memories, traditions. For some people there's trauma around this time, and so I think what I recognize is the higher potential for more conflict. And then talking about power and control. And we'll be using referencing, we'll have Cardinal post the, there's a specifically queer power and control wheel that is useful in these conversations. But I wanna start, do you have Melisa? Do you have a good working definition for power and control or, do you want me to dive into that?
Melisa: I'm, I'm like, You could totally take that one, Keely, I dunno if I have a working definition, but I mean, I think about it as the cycle that happens. I mean, in some ways I think the reason it's hard for me to find a specific definition is my perspective is that we are always working in power and control dynamics, even without conflict being present. Like power and control is just energies that we wield when we were in our, in interaction with other human beings.
Keely: Yeah, and I think that there's this discussion like we have, everyone has moments or like pretty much on a daily basis, some kind of controlling behavior. And the idea, one person in the counseling field, this resources from a book, Allies in Change, and they talk about controlling behaviors happens. Everyone's constantly doing controlling behaviors. It's not necessarily good or bad. Like, like parents for instance have controlling behaviors with their children. Telling them what to do, what they can eat. Now, depending on development and age, it can be very appropriate to do that. But then as kids develop and mature and get older, we hopefully parents are taking less and less of those controlling factors and being at work. If you're a manager, there's all these pieces. The differentiation one, clarity is like you said Melisa, When there's a pattern
Melisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Keely: And so hoping that our discussion today can help people clarify more the difference between conflict or when there's conflict and when there's power and control and interpersonal violence and set up, set the stage up for having more healthy conflict with your partner. More discussions that, that are disagreements, but that aren't emotionally violent or verbally aggressive.
Melisa: Yeah, I like that term healthy conflict. That feels juicy and wonderful. As someone who is relatively conflict avoidant, that's an important phrase for me to hear and keep repeating to myself, which might be a tool for some of you that might be a mantra for a while. Conflict can be healthy because conflict is something that just is. And that's one of the things I remember back from my very first couples therapy class. Like that's one of the first things that we learned is to sit down with couples and just name, look, conflict is going to happen. So how do we as a team wanna address that? You know? And I don't know, I mean, we've talked about things we, we might mention on a first date and when we're exploring new relationships. I don't know that we've actually explicitly said that or suggested that, but that's something that's, especially because of the dynamics I've been through that have created some relational trauma in my life. That's a really important question or, or agreement to have with new potential partners. Like what happens for you in conflict? What do we wanna agree to as far as how we'll navigate that together?
Keely: Yeah. And when, When do you have that conversation and how do you navigate conflict? How you navigate disagreements? I think one of the pieces, obviously as we talk about in any situation is looking at yourself first and recognizing what are some of your own patterns that you have from previous relationships.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Can you look back and say, Oh, when I was in conflict with my partners, I tend to do xyz. I tend to avoid conflict as much as possible, and then I just verbally spew all the things that I've been holding in. Or do you notice a pattern of? Is there any name calling or is there pointing the finger? Are you, are you a person that is able to slow down and take accountability for your part of the conflict?
Melisa: Right. So much of this will be looking back at how was conflict modeled for you when you were young. What was it like in your family of origin? Part of the reason I think I am conflict avoidant is I did not witness a lot of it. My parents really had their arguments for the most part. I can recall a couple years where things were dicey but for the most part out of my view. And so I, I, I've been taught that there is this calm way to deal with, with, well, actually, I'll tell you, I, I get very on my high horse that that is, to me the best way to deal with conflict is being regulated. And some of that gets reinforced by what we learn as therapists. But also when I'm in relationship with people who have different family styles, different communication styles, different values. I mean, let's be honest, I've been into a lot of East Coasters, who are very direct, and I don't wanna generalize not everyone from the East Coast, but like,
Keely: Well, that's my favorite part. That's my favorite part of DC in our dynamic. It does.
Melisa: Totally, yeah. If you can imagine like the New England, like feisty fiery energy, like that's quite attractive to me in a lot of ways. In conflict. I can get into trouble though because I shut down really quickly making assumptions about somebody else's intentions because of the energy they're giving me and because it's just not what I was raised with.
Keely: Yeah. That's an interesting point too, is the difference of energies. Cuz I've heard people say that they'll be in conflict. They're very passionate. Their partner will say, stop yelling. They're like, I'm not yelling my voice is loud.
Melisa: Right. Yeah.
Keely: And how people internalize or react to volume and vocal intensity. I mean, the basics. When we, when I do couples work with clients, we set agreements at the beginning of session.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: You know, we start with easy ones. Like, hey, no name calling.
Melisa: Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: Like I will say right here, name calling is an abusive tactic.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: Like it's not okay to name call. Yeah. And tell our our, we're taught that in kindergarten, what are the things we learn in kindergarten? Do not name call.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: I also model if things, if I notice things getting really heated that I will initiate a timeout in the session, and so that can be carried over to that modeling, because oftentimes we say this all the time, take a timeout, but in the heat of the moment, the feedback I get time and time again from clients is that it's really, really hard to do the timeout.
Melisa: Right? Yeah. And without. I mean, the agreement is great and also practice, like actual practice of these tools. The timeout can be hurtful and it can really play on other people's trauma. I have been very much guilty of this and so I'll, I'll out myself for that. Being someone who doesn't respond super well to high intensity conflict, the minute, for example, something like name calling happens, which has definitely happened to me, I, my entire system shuts down and I can no longer be present. And if I try and set a boundary of like, I need to take a break, and that's not immediately respected, I have been known to get up and literally leave without a word. And in one school of thought, like, great, you're trying to practice regulation. You don't want to stay in a engaged in a conversation if you're not within your window of tolerance, like those are all perhaps admirable things.
But without communicating anything to my partner, I could be triggering abandonment wounding, because I literally just picked up and left. I didn't say anything. I didn't say if I was coming back. Granted, usually I like went to the other room. I never like actually got in a car and like took off. But that's where I say like even our best efforts to manage ourselves in conflict really are, are somewhat meaningless that these are agreements with partners, you know?
Keely: Yeah. And those agreements. And you know, I'm thinking as we're talking, I want to use this time as the place to differentiate between power and control and conflict. And I think about, aside from name calling, there's also ways that coercion and threats can be made or using intimidation.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
One thing that it sound that I'm hearing as we're saying this, Keely is a way to differentiate whether something, a situation is, is healthy conflict or bordering on a, an abusive pattern or conversation is when the lack of respect for the other human. Starts to become present. Cuz that's what I hear with name calling.
It's disrespecting someone. . Yeah.
Keely: And in fact, the title of this, when I pulled up another copy of the queer wheel of control or power, Power and Control Wheel is, it literally says love is respect.
Melisa: Yeah. Ding, ding, ding. But truly, I mean, and even with my earlier example, a respectful way for me to have handled things instead of getting up and turning away and walking out would've been to say, This important, this conversation is important to me. I am not in a place to continue it right now. I'm going to take 20 minutes, then you can check in with me. Now, I'm gonna tell you, that is still hard for me to, that much language is still hard for me to say in those moments. So that's a, that's a growing edge for me. But communicating something, I need a break. I'll be back in 20, I'll be back in an hour. That is a way to show respect for someone while also then respecting and taking care of our own needs.
Keely: And in this you have agreements. This is where if you know that you have a trauma response or I know that I, I speak with folks who I talk to sometimes who are neuro divergent, will not be, will not be able to do it verbal.
And so having like a code word or this is where maybe you do text.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: Like some people really just are able to communicate more clearly if they are being flooded with emotion or they're being, they have some trauma trigger.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And it's not about the other person. I like the quote I just read, which I'm not gonna say clearly, but it's like a trauma. It's not, the idea isn't to avoid a trauma trigger, it's to how do we work through it? And so if we talk through these agreements and talk to our partners about our style of communication and how we may shut down, or how do we communicate when we're feeling emotional, when we're feel, when we're in conflict, that prepares ourselves and our partners how to navigate it.
And it can be such a healing process,
Melisa: Right.
Keely: To actually learn how to have conflict in a healthy way that can shift the patterns that some people learned in childhood.
Melisa: Right? I mean, and you're learning this together like you're a team in that moment, getting through conflict, even though you bring individual things to the table and you have your own nuanced trauma responses.
If, if you can imagine that you're both a team working through this. You know, storm, temporary storm, what might feel like a storm to people together. That, that invites a lot more room for collaboration and listening and holding both someone else's needs and our needs at the same time. Cause that's the other thing that comes to mind when we get into an abusive cycle, is that we are usually not really thinking about the other person at all. It is only about us. It's only about you know, our sense of safety, our sense of whatever it is we're trying to protect. That can lead into some of those really negative behaviors. I think we should name them Keely, like you, you started to, but just watch out for these in conflict, like things like the name calling, we said blaming.
Keely: Using isolation when someone's trying to control what you do.
Melisa: Gaslighting.
Keely: Gaslight. Yeah. Denying, minimizing and blaming. Shifting responsibility for abuse behavior. For those that have children using children.
Melisa: Yeah. Financial
abuse.
Keely: Financial, Financial Economic abuse. .
Privilege is an interesting one, and this is because within the queer dynamic, there can be a person who is more quote unquote passing. And there's a privilege. I hear so, so, so much. When conflict happens, when conflict actually becomes abusive, and the person that is more cis hetero passing will be the one, especially the person who, like if, if police get called or if there's interac, even if police aren't called, but other people get involved, it's like the person will be believed, like with like AFAB folks, it's often the person who's more fem.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: The mass person gets believed.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: With the dynamic of cis and trans relationship, the trans person often gets much more of the assumed abuse, even if it isn't them. So that's where power, that's where privilege can be brought in. How they put in here is using, using privilege or ability to quote unquote pass to discredit you, put you in danger, use the system against you. And I do wanna bring up, because some people, there is a concept that was discussed from U of O and people not, may not be familiar with this term? DARVO?
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: And DARVO stands for a Defend, Attack, Reverse Victim, Offender.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And so, this is really tricky and this is somewhat in the realm of gaslighting, but that the person who is engaging in abusive behaviors like name calling or coercion, then they defend themselves, they attack the other person and they, they victimize.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And this can be seen with like threats of suicide.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: The person saying that if you leave me, you know, so there's name calling going on, there's some kind of abuse, and the person says they're gonna leave because it, it's not okay. And then the offender says, well, if you leave, I have no one else I'm going to, you know, go kill myself.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And so there's more, we'll put more information about DARVO too, but that's another piece that's really challenging as, as people examine their relationships and if they're questioning whether or not the conflict they engage in with their partner actually has some abusive patterns.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And if you think there's some abusive patterns, there probably is. And if you do notice, reach out to the crisis lines. Reach out to your individual counselor. Reach out Allies in Change is a great resource. So don't navigate this by yourself.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Talk to people. Find out. Do you, does it feel that there's an abuse dynamic? Check in with yourself. How are you participating in that as well? I think the, another piece about abuse, you know, with conflict, it's more, it's involves two or more people. And with, I'm not here, I'm not wanting to victim blame. That's not what I'm doing. But there is certain dynamics, power and control dynamics, but it's more complicated and like, Oh, here's the person who's the abuser and here's the person abused.
Melisa: Absolutely.
Keely: Sometimes way more complicated than that.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And part of it, you know, one example could be the boundaries or lack of boundaries someone is setting. What are you tolerating? What are you allowing somebody to treat you as? And again, as I say that sometimes there is a reason that people who are in an abusive situation will drop their boundaries or try not to have them because they're afraid of physically getting hurt. Something like that. That's where you, you absolutely you need support. You know, you need resources and, and likely a safety plan as to where you can go if you do set boundaries and what you can do. With that too. I've shown DARVO to clients before it's been eye-opening, and then some of them have gone, Oh my God. But I do that too. And I'm like, Yeah, me too because as soon as someone starts name calling, I get defensive and I start name calling back and I participate in the same behavior, maybe a different version of it, but the same thing I'm receiving. So that's another. I think actually kind of a tactic for analyzing how much you are in partnership, as I kind of talked about, are you really a team or is this a, you know, power and control, negative power and control dynamic. If you're able to drop those defenses, then when someone gives you feedback, say about something that you've done that they weren't happy with, you're able to drop the defensiveness and not the like, No, I didn't do that, or I didn't mean that. And just take that in and say, Yeah, okay, let me, let me see how this makes sense for you. Okay, yeah. I can understand how my behavior might have caused that reaction in you. And we can start to have that kind of conversation if that becomes very one sided and only one person is able to own up to what they are doing consistently.
That's a sign that this is not an equal partnership in terms of how we're navigating conflict. And I hesitate to say that because I don't want that to be like a sneaky, like a manipulative tactic. People use, like, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm disingenuous, but I'm just gonna accept everything you say and then see if you can accept feedback too. Like that. Check yourself on that. If that's your energy, you're also causing problematic dynamics, but, If you can earnestly start to shift to analyze how is my behavior impacting someone else, whether or not that was my intention. And then you're met with someone else who starts doing the same. That's when you know you've got a partner here that you can work through conflict together. And sometimes those conversations can't be had in the heat of the moment. Sometimes they have to be ha- they have to happen outside of the actual um, conflict discussion.
Hey. Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes buddy. In this episode, Celia Melisa mentioned a power and control wheel, which is a one page diagram with some really helpful examples of red flags, specifically in lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans relationships. Download it for free at the link in the episode description.
All right, back to the show.
Keely: Yeah. And you're looking at, you're observing, like, are you, is it power over? Are you trying to be right. That's another piece of conflict and healthy conflict is are you looking for, you know, you mentioned Melisa saying working as a team, are you looking to have a resolution that the two of you can come together or you are you trying to be right?
Right. Yeah. Are, are you? And that's more of that power over and I think. Like in DBT, they always say like, do you wanna be right or do you wanna be effective? That's one of the phrases and I, and effective in that framework would be, are you working together to have some kind of resolution that works for both of you?
And there isn't always gonna be a resolution, of course, like you said, sometimes it's about feedback. Sometimes there's pieces, sometimes it's about one person just letting go of something. There's so many different scenarios, but if you can reflect on what is your goal? Are you listening to what the other person is saying?
Are you reflecting back on what the person is saying?
Melisa: I love those reflection questions. It reminds me, I just had a session last week with someone where we were, we were tearing apart that idea about being right with regards to a conflict they'd had with a partner and we kept unpacking like, well, what would that mean? Like essentially, if you were wrong, what does that mean? What does that mean? If you hurt someone's feelings, what does that mean? And I kept asking that question. I mean, to an annoying extent, like a therapist might like, you know, a good few minutes getting down to like, what's the real root of this? And we finally got to, if I hurt someone, that means they're going to leave me.
Keely: Oh.
Melisa: So I can't assume, I can't validate the fact that you've been hurt or that I hurt your feelings, because if I do that, that means I'm gonna be left, right? And I'm like, Ooh, there's the trauma. You know? And that's what we can work on individually, so that this person has a, a stronger bandwidth for accepting, like, I make mistakes. And actually, this one, I, I really hurt your feelings. You know? Because all their partner was needing was some validation.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: But because it was tied for, you know, my client to this idea of being left, it was, it felt impossible and frightening to give that validation.
Keely: Yeah. Well, and that sneaky word shame. I'm, I'm hearing that in my head right now as we talk, as well as reflecting on how, how does shame pop in, in all of this?
Melisa: Yeah. We're always working with shame, aren't we?
Keely: I know. One with, with a partner is that idea of being able to make a mistake, right? Yeah. And what does forgiveness look like? And because again, this idea of when, when we're tossing around or really using the word toxic relationship or toxic or the word abuse. Those are helpful words. We just wanna make sure that we're using them in the way that they're actually meant to be used.
Melisa: Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And can we expand the vocabulary? Can we explain more to our partner, what we're actually feeling using more descriptive words.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: I think that what I've heard and witnessed and and been discussed is that word abuse will shut down conversations.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Keely: And, and, It's in itself it's own power over when if you throw the card you say, Oh, you're being abusive. Conversation stops. The person who's saying you're being abusive then isn't. They almost get this like freebie of not taking accountability for anything that's going on.
Melisa: Right? Yeah. Yeah. And the interesting thing, and again I'm going kind of basic therapist, but like that is, that's not an I statement.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: Saying you're being abusive is not an I statement and not that we're gonna be perfect in the way that we frame every single statement, especially when we might be a little bit without our, not within our window of tolerance. It's really hard to navigate from a you statement like that. I mean that really is, that's like okay, period. At the end of the sentence, I win the argument. You know, cuz now you can't say anything versus like, I'm feeling attacked. I'm feeling belittled, I'm feeling disrespected in this moment. Those are some I statements you might use if you are feeling like there's an abusive dynamic or I need a break. I'm getting confused. Pay attention to confusion. Especially that comes up for a lot of my clients when abuse dynamics start to happen.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: If you're feeling like your version of reality is in question and you're really confused, it's a great time to say, I am overwhelmed, I am confused. I need to step away.
Keely: Yeah. And that's saying that, that I, that includes that boundary because when we differentiate a boundary, a boundary, isn't don't talk to me like that. A boundary is if you call me names, I'm going to leave.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Because I'm not here to tolerate name calling.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah.
Melisa: You know.
Keely: Cause we're not, Again, this idea of control, boundaries or the idea of boundaries is really. Being navigated a lot because it's being misplaced and saying, Well, don't do this to me or I, you know, it's taking.
Melisa: My boundary is you can't do this to me.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: You can't name call. It's, I guess what we're saying is more like, this person can name call if they want, but I get to decide whether or not I'm present for it.
Keely: Exactly. Exactly.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And you can label within yourself, be like, Wow, this person is name calling. This doesn't feel good. This, oh wait, this is an abusive behavior. I'm gonna walk away from this.
Melisa: Right. Yeah.
Keely: And again, not I'm, I'm not here to victim blame, but to explore more of the depth of these dynamics.
Melisa: Yeah. Right.
Keely: And I think what's also interesting, especially when we're talking about such a, like when we're talking about the queer community, is it's so small and how, how do we navigate these challenging conversations in a perspective of cancel culture
Melisa: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Keely: And when I mean, I've literally heard people say, Oh, don't date that person. They're very abusive.
Melisa: Yeah, right.
Keely: And what does that mean, and what does that mean as a community to talk about it? Is there a way that we can have a richer conversation as a community to navigate?
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Can we come from a place of talking about what is healthy conflict? What are healthy relationships? I mean, that's what we're doing here talking.
Melisa: Well, and especially, I mean, if we have this idea or agenda about communal health, that's part of it. It's not, cuz you know, we're talking right now about the abusive. You know uh, behaviors that people can have. Where are those things learned? Usually it's from trauma. Usually it's somebody else has been abused, and so instead of canceling abusers, is there a way we can, you know, better engage with really strong boundaries.
It's not about, you know, not having, it's not about just taking abuse but it's also not necessarily about canceling. I think that's why I'll just name it, and this has just been on my mind. Maybe it's relevant, but the whole word detachment as the answer to codependency. I've still been like grappling with this for like a year now in my brain.
And I think that's why I have a strong reaction to that word. I, I'm, I'm beginning to understand it more in the context of codependency, and that's a separate conversation we can revisit at another time. But related to the cancel culture, I think that's my gut, like, like discomfort with that word is because granted, sometimes we do know to have a boundary that's no contact and this person is out of my life.
Keely: Correct.
Melisa: But we can jump there so damn quickly sometimes because we have also received wounding from other people and we're bringing all of our past stuff and projecting it onto this person in this one moment, especially in new relationships. I've seen this, we're like, as soon as there's conflict, it's like, no, it's over, you're abusive, I can't, We're done. You know? Not necessarily, we don't need to just cancel people out or label people as terrible because they've been in abusive patterns. There's probably healing for them there. And we may not be the one to help them through that journey.
Keely: Yes, yes.
Melisa: But we can respect, they're a human being on a healing journey.
Keely: We may not be the person that takes 'em on that or is with them during that healing journey. So again, we're not saying stay with, if you are recognizing abusive patterns, the relationship is unhealthy or feels unhealthy to you. We are not advocating to stay in it. But we are saying when you move, if you be, move beyond that, or if you do notice these abusive patterns within your relationship and you want to work on them, reach out and have help. And this is a very, I'm just waiting to get some messages cuz this is, this is a touchy topic, so important to talk about.
It's underreported, and it's not discussed as much within queer relationships. And there's such, there's such a, like this picture of what we, in our, in our society, in the American culture, deems as what an abuse, abusive relation looks like.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And there's so much more nuances to that. It's just very cis heteronormative, you know. What we've been told, what we've been modeled on TV or in real life. And the reality is, is there's these power dynamics at play throughout all different types of relationship dynamics. And can we work on that in healing that.
Melisa: Right?
Keely: So we will link in that power and control wheel and we'll also link in some resources if you do. And I think I wanna re recap before we go to Queer Joy. It's a little, a little, little rough transition to queer.
Melisa: We went a little heavy now that we're getting colder into the dark season.
Keely: I do wanna highlight what we talked about, some of the aspects of healthy conflict. Coming to agreements with partners before when we're not engaged in conflict.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Looking at agreements such as practicing timeouts before conflict going over agreements like no name calling, no physical, no throwing things, no physical violence going over. Even if you think in your head. Well, yeah, duh. Everybody knows that, uh, no way happening.
Melisa: And verbalizing too, and you said this before Keely, but again, to recap, doing your own introspection, to, to learn what happens to me in conflict. How do I respond to these different things and how can I communicate that to a partner? You know, for example, like I noticed that I shut down when this happens, so if I start to shut down, here's the agreement we can meet, you know, we can have around that.
Keely: Yeah.
Yay, healthy conflict. And
Melisa: Everyone take a deep breath please. Notice if you're holding tension anywhere in your body. I am just talking about this. So yeah, it's a good time to get somatic and like release a little energy, stretch a little bit. Right? But updates, do you have, do you have updates, Keely? Do you want me to figure out what my updates are?
Keely: I don't even know where to begin. I think I left off, so the person who had gone Midwest, they came back. We had a date. We had the talk about maybe dating seriously. Like, more like. They have a primary partner, they moved in with their primary partner, but their primary partner also has a spouse they live separately from and so we had that really long conversation about what that would look like. And what does it mean to take a relationship from like dating more casually to more serious. So we had that conversation. One of the concepts we talked about, I'm like, well, the Virgo to me wants to see some schedules scheduling in. You tell me that I'm important when you have me in your schedule.
Melisa: Show me.
Keely: So yeah, some dating, some different people. Some people I've been dating came back. I have a new person I continue to date very casually kind of navigating that, what it looks like to date slowly. And then I have a person that I chatted with on the apps from like seven or eight months ago that popped up again and were texting. So that's kind of cute cuz I don't know, it's just kinda cute, like we haven't met in person yet, but we have plans to. So in just adjusting to, honestly getting ready for the holidays and what that means for time spent with people and how I wanna spend my time and dang it, I am ready for a primary partner and oh goodness, it is challenging to find a primary partner cuz it seems like everyone.
Already has a primary partner or people are monogamous.
Melisa: Uhhuh. Right.
Keely: I'm not opposed to being monogamous sometimes, especially if I'm in like a committed relationship at the beginning, but I can't I being with someone that's hardcore monogamous, I don't know. Anyway, so on, on the, not even just the lookout, but open to the possibility of having a partner, a primary partner, now that it's been a good year.
Melisa: Yeah. You giving yourself the time you needed.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: While still being in relationship with others as we talk about all the time.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Still being in relationship with others.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. It's important.
Keely: Yay. Poly.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I like the way you said, being open to primary partnership. I, I would say for myself, I am still not in a place right now where I can manage that, or that would sound very appealing, especially to somebody who I like currently don't know, like the idea of meeting someone new to start with feels overwhelming. And then developing that into primary, like, that's just so, that's too much for me right now. But what I will say is I have noticed a shift in the last month where, I am, I am in a different place than I was two years ago when I was just going through divorce. You know, I can see the potential for primary partnership in the future, maybe in, you know, I, I would say earliest, like a year from now.
But it's cool to notice those even minute shifts, you know, in our own energy. I am, yeah, I guess at the, at the moment still solo poly also feeling like I'm hunkering down and just getting ready for the, the season, you know, getting ready for winter. Holidays for me don't involve plans with partners at this point, which is relieving and wonderful. I get to decide what I do. I think this will be the first holiday season. I actually get to see my family since 2019 it was before the 2020 holiday actually. That 2019 got canceled for various reasons. Cause of sickness, cuz of Covid before we knew what Covid was.
So yeah, so it's been for some of my family members, it's been several years since I've seen them. So yeah, getting ready for that. I will, I will disclose, I was still on the dating apps for like a minute, . Someone may have seen me there, and then I was gone. I, I, you know, follow natural impulses. I had an instinct like, I wanna get there. I wanna see who's out there matched with two people. Sent like one message back and forth. I will, I will disclose. I sent a truly horrendous message in terms of like trying to express that I was available. Did not do that. Essentially, just really painted the picture that I hate people, which is not true, but I read what I wrote, I'm like, Oh, you could really, if you don't get me and get my humor and sarcasm, like this wasn't, this wasn't the kind of message you send to somebody you don't know yet. Which is fine, I, I honestly, I was very much laughing at myself. And it was another one of those kind of checkpoints where I'm like, Yeah, you know what?
Not actually interested in meeting anyone new. Good to know.
Keely: Oh, yeah.
Melisa: Off the apps. I think I lasted two weeks.
Keely: Sure.
Melisa: But yeah, I'm, once again, back off. My, my, you know, current relationships are going well. I continue to develop long distance, which it's just interesting, but I'm glad that that connection is being maintained and video chats are really fun when we can do them. And, you know, still hoping in the future we will see each other in person again. Although talking about what that might feel like, because there's a, there's, there will be a difference between how much time we've emotionally spent getting to know each other versus how much time we've actually been in physical proximity to one another, so.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: I'm ready for the new relationship energy all over again in like several months when I get to see him.
Keely: Aw, that's so cute.
Melisa: Yeah, so things are going well and continuing to progress with my local partner. I'm, I'm grateful that I do have some romantic sexual connection with someone here during the winter this year, cuz that will be very different for me. I really spent last winter completely alone, aside from seeing clients and coworkers, that was about it. So we're, we are doing things a little bit differently this.
Keely: Yeah, the holiday season for me last year was very much alone too. I mean, I had a couple interactions with people, but definitely was not, was very single and
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Spent a lot of time by myself and I, I like physical touch. I want, I want someone to cuddle with when it's cold outside. I mean, my cat's great, but I, I still want some humans too.
Melisa: I was just gonna say, my cats want me to have humans. Cause they're like, put me down, leave me alone, like boundaries. I try and respect their boundaries, but sometimes I'm a little too much.
Keely: That's a whole topic. Boundaries with, with animals.
Melisa: For sure.
Keely: /
Queer joy
Keely: So my queer joy, I feel like you're just gonna love us Melisa. My queer joy of this week was going to Queer Karaoke.
Melisa: Yay. I already love it.
Keely: And not just, was it queer karaoke, but people were singing. Songs from musicals. We got the classic wicked. We got Chicago. And acting it out so much.
Melisa: They, they were committed.
Keely: Yes. And it was, it was interesting to navigate my injury. I did sing a song, but I sent my time in, in my chair and wasn't dancing cuz I don't, I haven't gotten the green light to dance yet. But just recognizing all of the joy I was still able to participate in, in spite of being injured.
Melisa: Mm-hmm.
Keely: Still engage in that and really feeling, feeling so much joy. Just observing folks.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And lots of new people and the people I'm looking at some of the people singing that weren't in my group and they're singing like 90 songs and I'm like, I realize that they might have not even been alive when these songs are around.
Like it's my generation. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. It's so interesting and fascinating. It happened a lot of reminiscing too, but it was quite, quite the Queer Joy.
Melisa: Fun. Fun. Oh God, we're recording and I'm like, Wait, what happened in the last week? I don't know. I have a queer joy update cuz I, I had talked a couple weeks ago about getting to collaborate.
I don't even know how much I said about the project on a zombie movie uh, or a music video. Yeah, so I'll tell people the band is Dear Drummer. They're located in Portland and you can go to their website if you wanna see a hilarious zombie music video that I helped with. So getting to see that was really fun. And just the, a culmination of a really fun project. My Queer Joy right now, I'm gonna take it back to Halloween actually. I took that day off cuz it's a spiritual day for myself. And it was, I'm so glad I did it brought, I just was able to give it more meaning. And that evening I had concert tickets to something I had been waiting for for months. I saw Alan Stone, who is. One of my favorites, at the Doug Fur Lounge here in Portland. And really cool venue. I mean, gosh, it's such a small venue for a big artist like that. I got to be like right up. Actually, he started down in the audience, like right behind me and I turned around. I'm like, Oh my God. Like, sir, you are right there.
Keely: Whoa.
Melisa: Its amazing. I had the best time everyone's in costume cuz it's Halloween and there's a group of people right in front of the stage who dressed up as Alan Stone. So there's like five people with the wigs and the glasses. It's great.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: So that was like super fun. Especially cuz I have not done anything for Halloween in at least the last two, if not like, three to five years. And then afterwards, really spontaneously and unexpectedly, I got to see a partner and I, we like, were kind of in costume together and like in a, in like a, like a duo costume, which again was super last minute and unexpected, but it was so fun to go out and be like, you know, in theme with another person and just sit.
And we weren't super energetic and so I didn't do any dancing either, but sitting and watching everyone on Halloween night, like it just, Amazing. Like such. There's this coming back to life that's happening for, well, it's happened kind of every season, since summer, I guess, really. But this fall just represents so much rebirth for me after the turmoil I've been in post divorce. So yeah, getting to experience real joy on, on special days like that means so much.
Keely: Yeah. That's so wonderful. Well, thank you everyone for listening today. Hope you got something out of it. Let us know, you know, how to contact us, give us some ideas for future topics or ask us questions. And other than that, I hope you all have a queer and joyful week. Thanks for listening to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective, hosted by Keely C. Hemlink. And Melisa DeSegiurant. With audio edited by Ley Supapo Benito. I'm your producer, Cardinal Marking.
Intro music is by bad snacks. If this episode may de smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify or send us an email at media Connective Therapy Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our.
At www dot Connective Therapy Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.