Nothing exists in a vacuum, we are all a part of many systems. What relationship systems do you exist in? Monogamous? Non-monogamous? How do we act with responsibility towards both ourselves and others in our system? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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TRANSCRIPT
ep 69
Keely: There's all these systems that we can talk about and recognizing your role, how you interact in those different systems. And today we're talking specifically about systems within non monogamy.
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to Queer Relationships Queer Joy.
Melisa: We're queer and we are here and we have joy. Dammit.
Keely: Well, we are your hosts and today we're gonna be navigating, we're gonna do some check-ins, updates first, and then talking about systems. I could talk about systems all day. And specifically talking about systems within non-monogamy. We say this all the time, I think, but there is a lot about non-monogamy that can be applicable to monogamous relationships. And there are things we will talk about today when we're, yes, we're referring often to romantic, sexual, non-monogamy relationships, but there are aspects of non-monogamy and especially when we're talking about systems and how does communication conversations go, that can be applied to all sorts of relationships and not just sexual and romantic relationships.
Melisa: Yeah. Before we get too far in, let's introduce ourselves.
Keely: Go ahead Melisa.
Melisa: I'm Melisa DeSegiurant. I'm licensed as a marriage and family therapist and professional counselor. I'm white. I'm bisexual, polyamorous. I'm able bodied and I'm gender fluid I use she and they pronouns.
Keely: My name is Keely C. Helmick. I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm a certified sex therapist owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am white, non-binary queer. They them pronouns, body still healing and I am like solo, solo, solo, like cap, all caps, S O L O.
Melisa: Are there any exclamation points in there?
Keely: I, no. This is not exclamations, but it is like a readjustment. I feel like I'm doing this like almost spring cleaning.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Keely: Not that. Yeah. So I guess we're diving into updates cuz that's what I do. I just dive into them.
​
Keely: So I, so right now I'm recording from my home, which is sans roommate. I have no roommate and I've had a roommate. I'm 42 years old. I have had a roommate most of my life. Even when I live with partners, I have a roommate, usually no roommate. kids are not here right now. no pets. Literally I'm chilling in the house.
Melisa: Sounds like a big adjustment.
Keely: It is a huge adjustment.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And for those that have followed and listened about the person I deemed as main, main, main. Yes. Copying Ashley Gavin. Uh, we are doing a relationship transition and I am so to be determined what that means. Uh, speaking of communication and systems, we are figuring out. How to co-create a relationship dynamic that works for both of us and what we want and within our other systems.
And I am still fully off the dating apps, like not, I just am readjusting. Yeah. A lot of changes. Some that I have control of, some that I don't. The roommate thing was something that happened. I mean, I joke, I don't know. I don't think I've said this in the podcast that my roommate was the longest relationship I've had in a long time.
Almost five years. So adjusting to that. Yeah. And a little bit of like new baseline spring cleaning almost. Like, okay. Got through the winter situation though. It's still very much winter in Portland, Oregon, as I look out the gray skies. yeah, just adjusting lots of joy. I'll share some queer joy later on, but yeah, really when there is, when I'm putting less energy towards romantic and sexual relationships as we all know, and I probably heard and experienced, there's, I'm experiencing, I'm at the cusp of opening up more energy for creative endeavors. have the lesbian choir. Really excited to be practicing music, forming new relationships there, and then really revisiting and checking like where my relationships with friends, where I maybe haven't had as much time and energy for them.
Reinvigorating those relationships and traveling some more again since my back injury. So lots of really fun, awesome things, and maybe my updates for now will be focused more on relationship dynamics. That aren't centered on sex and romance, though I tend to, cuz that's my default as I talk about drama.
Melisa: I think a lot of people gravitate toward, you know, we get so much of a hit a chemical hit from those kinds of relationships.
Keely: Well, and we're queer relationships, queer joy. And we've talked about it, that we do like to talk about queer, other queer relationships, not just sex and romance.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And you know, one of the things, even Danni, that recent interview, she mentioned really enjoying our episodes on queer platonic relationships and other relationship dynamics.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah. They're important to highlight. we don't still see that in mainstream media. You know, the way that really reflects a, I guess a really stable system for all of us. We've talked about wanting to be more in community than in isolation, and part of that is dismantling this idea, number one, that there's only one necessarily romantic or sexual partner for any one person, but also that is the only kind of relationship that should be fulfilling to us or should be, established in our lives,
Yeah.
Well, I resonate actually with what you're talking about in your update, Keeley of kind of updating and spring cleaning in a way. I also, I think I named this maybe a week or two back, but I'm definitely feeling like there's more energy coming back to me, which is nice. And yes, I also know winter is far from over
However, we're past the darkest part of the year, you know? Definitely. And I feel proud of myself that I've made it. Is that weird? I'm like, Hey, this one went better the last time. You know? I. , it takes a lot of conscious effort, , to get me through the dark season up here, and I feel like I did a good job this year.
Go me. Yeah, I wouldn't say clearing out in terms of relationships is happening for me, it's more clearing out in terms of where I'm putting my energy in general in my life. Maybe simplifying is a better way to, to say it for me right now. Simplifying my focus. and this may sound like this goes against simplifying, but that also does mean deepening relationships for me. But it's again, focusing on where am I putting my energy? And some of that's relationship, oh, go ahead.
Keely: Well, no, I was gonna say when you said simplifying, I definitely think simplifying allows that energy to deepen the connections that someone that we do have already.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And when you think about the broader spectrum of like all the kinds of relationships we're in, simplifying for me means really prioritizing. Like, yes, I am prioritizing romantic relationships right now. That's the point that I'm at in my life. I don't even like to say it that way cuz that, that reminds me of the relationship escalator. That's not what I'm saying, but I'm saying that I'm divorced. I've been very solo for three years and things are shifting
So that's the wave that I'm currently writing also. And I've named this here. I've really worked on relationship with self and ha- habits and things like that. And now there's enough in place that I'm shifting away from that and working on my relationship with capitalism and money. And we'll talk about that coming up in a couple weeks.
So, yeah, I would say that, and just my relationship with my future, which is an interesting one to think about because I'm realizing, as being somebody who's loves to dream about the future, I have to check myself that those dreams are not too, I don't know, hierarchical or too, generic. I dunno. I've, this is a topic for a later day, but I'm noticing patterns, reemerging, interpersonal patterns, and so I'm just deciding do I want to continue these patterns in the future? If not, what do I change? .
Keely: Well, that's a really good segue to talking about systems because we have patterns within ourselves individually, and then there are patterns that sneak up and aren't always apparent and our interconnections with systems that we're involved in.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And the impact, oftentimes communication within systems, which I know is at least part of what we're going to be talking about today.
in non monogamy, again, communication's important for all relationships, but when you have more than one person intentionally in a system, it becomes even more of a big deal.
​
Keely: Yeah and I think clarifying, when we talk, when I use the word systems, we're looking at ourselves or listeners as you are tuned into this episode, systems isn't, there's all these different systems that we're involved in, and so your systems at work, your family systems, your friendship systems, the bigger system of the city you live in. I mean, there's all these systems that we can talk about and recognizing. your role, how you interact in those different systems. And today we're talking specifically about more those systems within non monogamy. And really recognizing when we talk about systems is that we affect more what we do affects other people and what other people do affects us. I mean, to put it really simply. So how if we know that, how are we more intentional? and take accountability and work on developing better ways so that we're having positive effects and spreading joy.
Melisa: We want the whole system to be healthy and that, it's inherently complex because what I hear people get concerned about is if I, if almost if they put too much of a systems hat on, there's a fear about codependency.
Like, if I acknowledge that I impact other people in the system, doesn't that make me codependent? So, no, not automatically. And maybe that's more of what we can broaden on today.
Keely: Well, yeah, I think. There, there is this balance and finding, you know, it's interesting because I think that there is such a white, Western United States way of being that's so hyper independent, and I was doing a group supervision last week and we were talking about someone's self-esteem or validation or something, and they're like, oh, the automatic answer is, well, you should, you know, validate yourself just by yourself. You don't need anyone else. You can just, you know, you should, it should all be internal. It's like, whoa. Hold on.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Like, that's too over simplistic. And I think that because our society is so indivi, hyper individualistic, and I think in the group ratings, when you talk about. And I don't have the study on top of my head. I wish I was more, more inclined to have that, to inform people. But there are these, what are they called? Sociologists. They study and there are these ways of looking at societies and how individualized they are and how communal they are. So I think it's interesting talking about systems and reflecting on how the United States compares to other countries and United States according to these, the way that, these standards, the way these are measured, United States is the most individualistic country out there.
Melisa: Yeah. You know, it's, we're not gonna go into this today, but as you said that, I just in my head went back and like did a little, analysis on the US as if the US was like a person. Right. And think about the attachment wound with Great Britain and like, maybe we're an avoidant. Like I don't need anyone. I can figure this out. Everyone for their own, like somebody's gotta have done more inquiry into that. But we have some attachment wounds with the parent country for back in the day.
Keely: Well, yeah. and how white folks invaded and just took over. And so the way colonizing is very individualistic. Like, we're gonna come in and like, we're in Portland, Oregon, so we're on the west. the way the west was quote unquote conquered, you know, the way that white people came in and just took over is very individualistic. it's all really, you know, when people came from the east coast to the West coast and quote unquote settled these lands, they weren't thinking, how can we work with the humans that already live on this land?
Melisa: No, not at all.
Keely: Work with the animals and the other beings that have been here for all of these centuries. No. It was like, I'm gonna take over and I'm going to. Make this the way I want it. And it was so hyper. It is, it's so hyper individualistic and then it's also based on capitalism.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And so when we talk about these systems, it's really important to think about historically, not just how the United States, as we know in history, how it's colonized, but also where therapy comes into that and how we are so, so much of therapy that is taught in the United States is very individualistic as well.
Melisa: Yeah. And understanding where that comes from and how that's not only unhelpful but harmful, is important. And I think about that with relationship systems too. And especially in non monogamy.
One of the more difficult, I think things, it's funny, people who are not, um, not non monogamous. People who are monogamous, if you will often make the assumption, in my experience, that jealousy is the biggest thing that comes up. And like certainly jealousy can happen, but I think the, the actual, event that can be really challenging is introducing new people into the system.
When there's a new person who comes in, the entire system feels that shift and has to change. And I think as you were talking about that energy behind colonization and just destroying the people and systems that were already in place, that can really tank relationships in non monogamy and can look like somebody coming in and like with a sense of entitlement that like none of you matter. My feelings matter the most. This whole thing is about what I'm getting out of my relationships. Screw you. And yeah, that'll cause a lot of problems. That's not potentially like the energy we would encourage people to embrace non monogamy with.
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Keely: Yeah. And that doesn't mean that you're not aware of your own needs and desires in those moments. I also am curious. When I, when you're saying this Melisa, I'm thinking also how NRE affects this?
Melisa: Gosh yeah.
Keely: And coming in with these, like, this like energy of like, oh, this is the best thing ever and really riding this high and rose colored glasses, however you want to talk about it, but that really all of these pieces can influence the system.
And it's interesting, and I know you and I try to strike a balance of how much we talk about it from a clinical standpoint, how much we talk about it, hearing from other people's perspectives and then some of our own life experiences. And I'm, and I, the longer that I am dating and being in situations that are, and with people who are non monogamous, my self practicing non monogamy. It is really sitting with taking accountability, but not in a victim way, how much I affect other people.
Melisa: Yeah. And that feels like the important reframe though and I think that it was back in the interview, with Foster where they talked about that and like this shift from relationships are all about me and what I get out of relationships to what do I have to give?
Yeah. And what do I have to give to this system? What's my role here? And that's part of how we can develop secure attachment and feel special within the system, right? Is that we all have a role to play and it's unique and it's different, but that's a different, stance or perspective than, well, what's here for me?
Keely: Yes. and it is hard to negotiate where it is about what you need individually and what you want within a system, and how you want to give within that system and how you wanna show up in that system.
Melisa: Yeah. Those negotiations have to be so complex and those conversations are nuanced and it's putting the pressure back on the relationship check-ins. I think , um, that those are dynamic and sometimes there's not going to be a solution that automatically comes out of one check-in. That's a concept that's come up clinically a lot recently for my clients is this idea of can we engage in conversation even around potential conflict that we're having and work through as many points as we can from a regulated place. Realize today we're just processing, we're not going to have solutions and pause it and then come back later .
Keely: Well, and I think, you know, you said the sitting with it and I think people are looking for an answer or how to do something and want to do it a certain way or do it perfectly, which is also a very individualistic way of thinking about it.
It's really about co-creation. And this can be really hard to navigate if you're in a system, either if you're joining a system or you're part of a system where there are boundaries around how much information is shared.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: And like the dance of autonomy. And I'm just thinking this as, you know, as we're talking, the dance of autonomy and transparency. Because I found at one point, and I was saying this to one of the person I was dating, that there were times like there was this desire to not share everything with their other partners, but also sometimes it almost felt like with certain hidden moments or certain hidden things that were going on, it felt like a secret.
And I'm like, oh, this feels like we're like having an affair almost.
Melisa: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And in this day and age, and like we know, like with social media and everything that's so public, we want some privacy and how to navigate that sense of privacy, but also being open and transparent and so much shame can be associated with non monogamy. That's hard to figure out really.
Melisa: Oh yeah. I mean, and I've named this even with my updates here on the podcast, that I struggle with that, I wanna say almost daily, in that I have clearly made a conscious decision to professionally be very out about my identities. And that has been a very, that was motivated by personal needs.
I can wrap my head around the perspective that's helpful for a lot of other people and that is part of how I am as a therapist is I show up authentically, and I know that's helpful for my clients, but that was more authentically, rooted in a personal need to be seen and validate myself in a very public way cuz I had lived through so many years of shame and repression.
So this is my medicine. And at the same time I'm in partnership with people who are not out.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: In various ways. And so how do I continue to honor my own integrity with myself and who I wanna be as a clinician and who I wanna be in this public eye, which I already struggle with anyway. You all know, God is so tough.
Um, but then at the same time, honor my partnerships and the people who I am in relationship with. And to be honest, if I were in a capitalistic society, my career would not be as important to me. It's my relationships. I'm gonna be very honest. and so yeah, it is, we're constantly balancing those things and it's not this or that.
It's not black or white, right? It's not, it's all me or it's all, or I lose myself and I'm totally enmeshed in the system, right? being connected and conscientious of the system we're in does not mean codependency.
Keely: It doesn't, and this, and when we talk, and I use the term dance, I mean, I feel like I'm using it a lot today. I do wanna reflect on EFT. they, that term is used a lot in EFT of this dance. And I do like the idea of when we're dancing with somebody else or if we're in a group da- , you know, like in a musical number. There is something that we ha-, we do have our individual pieces of knowing how to do the dance, but it's really about how we're interacting with either the person we're dancing with or with the whole group of the dance number.
There is something really lovely about that imagery and that we're affecting each other. But when it's done, when you're in flow with all the other people, it just feels like amazing and we know those numbers take a lot of practice.
Melisa: They do. They do.
Keely: And oh, by the way, EFT means emotional focus therapy.
Sorry, I should reference referencing that. It's a, a type of, it's a modality. A theory of relationship counseling. side note, don't focus too much on e EFT, EFT, if you are, if you're curious about that. Type of therapy know that one of the originators, the really cool thing of emotional focused therapy is it was something that really came to light focused on the emotion within relationship dynamics. But Sue Johnson is very, anti nonmonogamy. So be aware, , if you are looking at that theory, the theory itself is interesting, but the founder and the person who really. Gets the most attention for it is a cis white woman and who's very anti monogamous, so just fyi.
Anyway. That was a side note. Just, yeah.
Melisa: Well, it is. I mean, from a cl-, I mean, my perspective is, it's kind of ironic because I find the theory to be helpful for all systems, but okay, sure, everyone has their own opinions.
Keely: Yes, yes. The theory. Yes, the theory itself is helpful and the origins of it are
Melisa: Yeah, yeah.
Keely: Exactly questionable.
​
Keely: So we're talking about how we flow within a system, how we navigate, negotiate.
Melisa: how we just even think about our lives as being systemic. As you pointed out earlier, not even just the romantic connections, but what would change if we started to envision ourselves as existing within a system?
Keely: Well, and something I've noticed as I have more room when those basic needs and when things are taken care of within in an individual, there is more openness to be expansive and connective. And so when there's space, then there's space to give more within. But there's also this dynamic that when everyone's contributing, then individually you also have more space.
Melisa: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're interdependent at that point, and that's what gives us some of that space to have the autonomy, you know, I'm even thinking logistically with non monogamy. That's where some people are like, well, that, gosh, that's where solo date night came from. That's where that came from, is because my partner was out on a date and I, it was throwback to my childhood when my father would be away on business trips, and so my mom and I would have girls night. Questionable the gender, you know, name now. But we would watch basically all the movies. My dad wouldn't wanna watch a bunch of chick flicks or whatever. And I took that concept into adulthood and decided I'm gonna treat myself on those times where my, you know, number one partner is not around. I'm gonna go out and do all the fun things that I wouldn't actually get to do with them. Right.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: And, and that is, yes, we were very much interdependent in our relationship together, but we did have space for autonomy.
Keely: Yeah, for sure. And we're not coming here to say that there is one right way to do this. I think today is talking about more of the awareness and when we talk about systems theory from a theoretical standpoint, it's, it is that baseline recognition that what we do influences everyone else in the system.
And so if we're looking at non-monogamous relationships, How do we reflect on how we are as an individual affecting the system? And if we want something to change, how do we negotiate that but also be considerate of where other people are at as well?
Melisa: Yeah, it's gonna take to stress tolerance in those negotiations because to negotiate we can't try on both people's perspective at the same time, there needs to be this taking turns of like, okay, let's talk about what, what needs are emerging for you? What does that feel like? How is that, do you have any request? How does that feel for me? And then we might need to even pause that agenda and say, okay, let's put a pin in that.
We're gonna shift now to what's going on for me. And to do that shift, that person who already shared their needs doesn't get to sit with that as the agenda anymore. They literally put that down and they sit and really try and dig into the other person, you know, their, what their requests are, what's coming up for them, we have to go back and forth a little bit.
You know, I think it's like immediately when somebody starts hearing needs, oftentimes what happens is we start planning our rebuttal. Like we, you know, we're already planning an attack of like, no, no, no, no. You know, and making assumptions that now this is the conclusion just because somebody is naming a need or a want or a request.
Keely: Well, and as you're saying this, Melisa, I think one of the things I really wanted to navigate when talking about systems within non monogamy is recognizing the complexities of the queer non monogamy scene because there is such, , the social world shrinks so dramatically.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: When you go into the queer, non monogamy sphere.
Melisa: Yep.
Keely: And I know, I don't, I've heard from other cities and I know, I mean, in some ways, . I don't know if this is exactly true, but I'm in Portland, Oregon. You know, you kind of look at like Portland, Seattle and San Francisco, like this West coast, like non monogamy Mecca.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And hey, we're a queer, queer podcast. So like, I don't need to speak to the cis world, cis mono, cis hetero, non monogamy world. So, but I do know for queer, non-monogamous folks, it, the, it shrinks. and so there's also this interplay, even as we're saying, okay, we're looking at the system that, you know, you're involved in with your, you know, your sweeties, your metamours, however that plays out. But we're also affecting the bigger queer community.
And that's what I've been trying to swallow for the past couple years of like when we talk about systems, how do we navigate that?
Melisa: And when the community is so small, how do we navigate the dual relationships? And we've named that concept before, but that inevitably will happen where somebody is potentially both our ex and our metamour, you know,
Keely: Holding different hats. Yeah, I think I said this, it's released before this one. I think this really came into play and I, in my mind it's very beautiful, but there is, when I recognize the impact that I was having on somebody, who was now a friend, friend's, partner. and hearing about my role in their relationship where I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm being really upfront, we stopped any kind of sexual relationship together. They're focusing on their relationship, and yet I was still this, character in their play, in their relationship play.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
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Keely: And, and it's interesting. When reflecting It can be, it feels really scary sometimes, but it also feels really beautiful to think, oh, cuz we're gonna talk about the negative things of how we affect each other, but we also can like really have these beautiful interconnections. And when this specific friend I'm talking about, I mean they'll talk about definitely like their exes of who are now hooking up.
Down in the California area or in other states.
Melisa: Yep.
Keely: Even in other states, it's like becomes a very small world.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And if anything, if this episode can help reconfigure what systems means and what interdependence means, and how we can think about, the ways that we show up and interact, how that influences all of this. And then also like where does like forgiveness and change fit in? Because I think also when we talk about this being such a small community and we're talking about systems, you may have an ex who's dating an ex or an ex is dating a friend, but that's that relationship, that sexual, romantic dynamic maybe ended five years ago, 10 years ago, and recognizing we also change. And so the way we show up in our systems currently doesn't have to be the same, and hopefully is not the same way as we were showing up in the systems five, 10 years ago.
Melisa: Yeah. And that makes me think about, a concept that comes up often in sessions is like updating narratives. And updating your narrative about the system and about your role in it, and your relationships within it, because they do change.
And I think, like you said, focusing on the positive part and what's working. I mean, flexibility in general seems to be something that is part of our wellness, whether we're talking about, you know, systemic relationships or even just relationship with self. And so I think being able to be flexible within a system and welcome that people's roles will shift and change.
And if we can normalize that and make that okay, that's golden. That saves us so many conversations that would otherwise be a conflict if we accept that change is inevitable.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that , something else that comes to mind as we're saying this, like forgiveness. I'm also like, I just plan when relationship dynamics change with anybody in my system, and again, when it's, this is usually more about sexually and romantic dynamics, but when they change, I just assume I'm gonna run into that person again. So I'm like, part of our conversation with our relationship transition is how do we want to interact with each other when we run into each other in public?
Melisa: Right? Yeah, yeah,
Keely: And can we like take away the shame or yeah, I get, that'd be the right word. Take away the shame of, oh my gosh, it's gonna be so awkward. You know, I don't wanna run into somebody, my ex or the person I was having sex with or had a fling with. And it's just like, you're just gonna run into them.
Melisa: You're gonna run into them. And like it may feel uncomfortable or awkward the first time, but that again, doesn't have to be the experience every single you know, I referenced this, I wanna say this is like podcast season one. So this is going way back. But I had a relationship at one point in college where it was a very small system. I went to a very small theater program, . And so, um, don't enter your assumptions here, about all our connections and dating one another in systems. some of them may be true, but I had this experience where I went through a relationship transition with somebody who had been kind of like a best friend. And then we dated for, I mean, a few months. Very brief. Yeah. and then we're going back into just being friends and they were dating somebody else who was also one of our friends.
I had to make the decision, how am I gonna show up and be around this person? When we spent, I mean, literally, this was our fa like my family, I was with them every single day after, well, both in class, in rehearsal and afterwards. And I remember one of the first times we shared space, it was probably at a party, something like that.
And the feedback I got afterwards was actually the person being a little bit like, caught off guard that I, and granted, I mean, I can mask so, you know, I guess I was masking like, Hey, we're just buddies and they were caught off guard that there wasn't a big, like dramatic energy from me or like a longing and that I just seemed.
Very cool about like we're gonna be friends. And some of that was masking the pain. That's definitely part of my like own trauma response. However, I, in the long run, it was really productive into us being friends cuz I was able to, in that conversation name. Yeah. I did have emotions and I don't find it to be productive to sit here and linger in the relationship that isn't anymore.
I really wanna embrace what we can be and became even closer friends after that. So again, we can change the narrative on what it has to feel like to be in the space with our ex.
Keely: Well, I, that's why I really embrace that term relationship transition, even if that transition means you don't see the person or don't interact with them. We don't have to be friends with every person we have been have dated or someone who we are platonic friends with, that friendship may dissolve or change. But I like the idea of relationship transition because in a small community, or like you were saying, yeah, if you are dating someone you work with or you're in a theater group together, you're in, you know, college together, that there's still gonna be these interactions, but that you get to shift how those interactions play out, and they don't have to be awful or super dramatic and it's interesting, I'm, I'm, I'm pausing cuz I'm thinking how to even talk about this, around going back to this idea of like privacy versus secrets. And I'm thinking of someone who, I was actually at a par, I've been at birthday parties recently where there's like the question's like, oh, how did you meet so-and-so? And you're like.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And how people navigate. How people navigate the information and how they navigate the interactions and
Melisa: Even information you're sharing about somebody you used to date knowing that you may be sharing with somebody who could be dating them in the future.
Keely: Well, and in therapy and, you know, we're both therapists and so like we come from this training that's like, you know, we don't even acknowledge someone exists. You know, if, and those of you that are in therapy, probably most of you who are listening or in therapy or have been in therapy in the past, know that your therapist will be like, oh, I'm not gonna acknowledge you if you're we're in public, but, if you say hi, we'll say hi. Like, we're not gonna pretend you don't exist, but like, it's, it's the ownness of the client to be the person if they want to initiate.
Melisa: Right. For confidentiality reasons,
Keely: Confidentiality reasons. and in the queer community, there are inter. intersections and like things come up and I was just at a, an event a couple weeks ago and one of my former therapists was there and I'm like, Hey, I'm like chatting with them and they're part of the q- queer community.
And,I think that piece is really hard and also navigating that and practicing how to t it's almost like talking about yourself and you know, if you wanna be really transparent or talk about yourself, but you don't have to actually talk about the other person or talk about the other person's information.
Melisa: Yeah. Talk about your experience in the relationship and own that, you know? and sometimes there are gonna be relationships that are really difficult and you're gonna need some people to talk to, you know, so it, it's not to shut people down from, again, being able to access their community, but maybe it's one of those, like, can you check with yourself on like, what's my intention with sharing this information?
Am I needing support or am I trying to just bitch about somebody and like badmouth someone? Like am I trying to get revenge? Am I trying to punish them? You don't have to judge it, but be aware of what you're doing.
Keely: Well, no, you know, cancel culture thing. And I was reflecting, I was talking to somebody the other day and they were talking about wanting to take accountability to the community cuz they had this other person had like caused harm and it was like okay people can make mistakes, but when we're blasting, you know, you'll see on Facebook people are like, oh, this person is an awful person. They did this, this, this, and this.
Melisa: Yeah,
Keely: I don't know what the answer is, but I know that there's people that have come upcome up against that.
So to sum up before we move on to Queer Joy is we are constantly navigating our place in systems and how our interactions affect other people, but also notating how things are affecting us and when we then can come into these conversations with that awareness, we have a much better opportunity to have more positive outcomes, better intention, healthier dynamics. And there is not one answer you have to co-create this, and , if we haven't said it before, we'll, these things take work, but I want a different word than work.
It's just The efforts that we put into things really demonstrate how much we can get out of 'em. And so when we're putting in, when we have focus and intention and put energy into these things, there's gonna be a lot more, there's no such thing as just skating by even, I like the quotes cuz sometimes we think like, oh well I just wanna, I'm just in a place where I just wanna have casual sex.
And then someone in a quote was like even with ca- what we call casual sex or random sex, eventually, if you're having sex long enough with somebody, different emotions are gonna come up. Mm-hmm.
Melisa: Well,
and even with like the one night stand casual sex with a stranger, for a lot of people, and, and what we would promote from a safety standpoint, that still involves very direct communication about your STARS.
Right? Like the STIs, STDs, safety, turnons, avoids like, so for some people it's like, oh wait, that doesn't feel so casual anymore. No. To do and ta- uh, to do relationships really well it does take effort and it does take practice and it does take showing up.
Keely: Yeah. And even those, you know what those one night stands you might happen to see them in the community.
Melisa: Very possible.
Keely: And we're not, there's no, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that. It's like it happens.
​
Keely: So on that note, uh, where are we at? Queer Joy, why don't you start, I'm still a little discombobulated.
Melisa: Like do we have joy \? I actually, I have some, I do have some queer joy to share. So I will, I will kick us off. I alluded to this one a couple weeks ago, but. I pretty randomly and spontaneously ended up investing in a boudoir photo shoot for myself.
Keely: Yay.
Melisa: Which I've been thinking about for quite a while. And, the prices that photographers around here were advertising were pretty far out of my price range. and I happen to find something that was, a, a better deal for me and it was just good timing, financially.
But I do wanna kind of spotlight. I went to Gathering Light photography and I wanna spotlight them because it was a really positive experience. And part of that, and part of the queer joy was, you know, I saw this and was like, cool, let's do it. And then I, the timing, it just so happened there was an opening like that weekend, so I had no time to prepare , which was maybe good for my anxiety.
I didn't have a lot of time to stress about it, but I didn't have time to go out and buy a bunch of stuff and put looks together. And I had like one kind of what you would expect for a boudoir or photo shoot, very femme looking like lingerie set. And then realized like, because we were invited to bring in like four looks and I realized.
I, I'm getting stuck by like this idea that I have to present in four different femme looks when that doesn't match my gender identity or like my self expression of my sexuality anymore. So I was like, wait, why am I putting that restriction on myself? You know? And what I will say is if anyone checks out Gathering Light, yes.
I had a fantastic experience. One thing to note though is it is very like woman centered. And so even like the private Facebook group I got to join is very much like women's empowerment and it's a sisterhood. And so that felt slightly incongruent for me, uh, and a little bit of a deterrent. But I will say there were some, um, trans women who were sharing their photos, and that helped me feel more safe being there as a queer gender fluid person.
Needless to say, I had a really good experience and seeing those photos back, the quality was so stunning. And the last professional photos I have of myself are wedding photos that I looked great, but like I don't necessarily wanna put those up in my house anymore. Like I'm not that person. And it reflects a very different chapter in my life.
So, for anyone who's been thinking about it, I do really highly recommend doing that for yourself. It is an investment, but I'm so grateful I captured this particular moment in my life cuz it's a big transformation for me. Gathering Light is really great. If you're a fem identified person, you probably won't have a problem.
If you do not identify as femme, this may not be the right place for you. I just wanna throw out that disclaimer. Um, but queer joy. It was great. It was marvelous. And maybe I will share, I'm not gonna share like, raunchy photos on on, on my page, but there's some that were not so raunchy that, you know, may maybe, maybe we'll see.
Keely: Nice. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Um, well, my queer joy for the week. I, I mean, I had a couple, but I mean, I did have my first rehearsal, lesbian choir, and a room full of 130 queer people wanting to sing. Whoa, like, wow, 130 is a lot of people and it's really exciting that many queer voices and of course like. I just love that.
One of the songs we were singing is like a Brandy Carlisle song. I was like, of course. Of course and all the fields. My excitement of the weekend, that's part of the queer joy, is that I went up to Astoria. With a friend and I didn't realize how queer a story I can be. they, we stumbled there. Saturday evening, went to this bar that it was like a restaurant bar and there was like so many like queer coded folks there and we're like, what?
We walked in and instead of usually on a coastal time, we're like awkward. We were definitely not the only queer presenting people in that establishment.
Melisa: Amazing.
Keely: And I know people, it's like, I don't know, with our audience, we have to like delineate this, but it's like, oh, what do you mean queer code? I'm like, uh, it just, just knew it just. We're like nose piercings and colored hair .
Melisa: They look like me.
Keely: Haircuts, and like
Melisa: I understand why there is the idea that that can be problematic. But I do have to say as somebody who moved to Portland, specifically for the queer culture, the minute, and also like I random, I'm not trying to take away your queer joy.
Oh, I saw somebody. Pumping my gas, which was already new for me, but they, they were wearing nose rings and purple hair. I was like, yes, I have landed. This is where I am supposed to be.
Keely: Yes. And like I just, and so then we found out, so we're at this restaurant, we find out there's a drag show that night in Estoria, Oregon. What, uh, and we were, I don't even, I lost count of how many stores we drove by, we're like, rainbow flag, rainbow flag, rainbow flag, rainbow flag, rainbow flag.
Melisa: Yay.
Keely: Like so many. so that was like in and of itself. I mean, definitely specifically queer joy we're just like in this place where feel pretty comfortable now, just like Oregon in this small town of Astoria, we also had moments where were like, uh, not so great.
But overall it was just exciting. and what a low baseline where we're like representation.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: In a little coastal town. And Astoria is a very interesting, yeah. Astoria has this, like we're also talking, there's this like Woo energy with like these different stores with like gemstones, but it's also like witchy, apothecary type energy. But it also is, ships and pirates and like storms that destroyed ships. It's in like this like kind of dark energy. It's a really, really eclectic, yeah. And I've only, this was my only second time, the person I went with, it was their first time being in Astoria. So they were having all these like, oh my gosh. And how fun is it? It's just so fun to go somewhere, even if it's not your first time, to witness someone's first time.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Face like, oh, and that's queer joy, just watching this other queer person just be so lit up by this new experience. So that was fun.and then of course we like ended up watching like a part of parts of Goonies
Melisa: Yeah, of course. Was gonna say you
have to.
Keely: Yeah. So that's the queer joy otherwise,coming up. Still getting excited for Lucy's arrival in Portland, Oregon in April. So anyone have interest in that? Please spread the word. Check out our website, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, all the things, and otherwise, have a queer and joyful week.
Thanks for listening to queer relationships, queer joy. A podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Keely C. Helmick Melissa DeSegiurant with audio edited by me and Ley Supapo Bernido. I'm your producer, Cardinal marking. Inter music is by bad snacks. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it.
Tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at media at Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our Instagram at queer relationships, queer joy, or our website www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.
Um,
Hey, Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes buddy. Did you know, we have a monthly mental health resource newsletter. I actually it's connected therapy collective as the newsletter, but where a part of it. Every month, I send you a new list of the QRQ J. Episodes resource of the month, a mutual aid opportunity and any new workshops or therapy groups that CTC has got going on.
Just a little dollop of mental health in your inbox every month. Sign up at the link in the episode description. All right back to the show.
Hmm.
Hey, Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes buddy. Did you know, we have a monthly mental health resource newsletter. Well, actually it's connected therapy collective that has a newsletter, but we're in it. And I write it. Every month, I email you a list of the new QRQ J episodes, a resource of the month.
Uh, mutual aid opportunity and any new workshops or group therapy that CTC has got going on. Just a little dollop of mental health in your inbox every month. Sign up at the link in the episode description. All right back to the show.