ep 72: Coming Into Queerness: Dating Advice For Newbies

What is it like to a baby gay? How can we support newly emerging queer folks? How can we all approach a new partner with a beginner’s mind? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.

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TRANSCRIPT

ep 72

Keely: this idea of people who are coming out, coming into their sexuality, looking to date and some of the hesitancy and feeling like needing to live up to something.

Melisa: Hi everyone. Welcome back to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy.

Am one of your hosts. Melisa DeSegiurant,

Keely: And I am the other host, Keely C. Helmick.

Melisa: Here we are.

Keely: It's like. Officially springtime.

Melisa: It really is.

I feel like one of the reasons we chose the topics we did today is because of recognizing coming out of that winter, and we've alluded to that and we've talked about this in other episodes of this coming into spring, coming out of kind of the winter. And really like a lot of people are dating again or d- or starting thinking about dating differently.

Dating, socializing it, becoming humans who interact with other humans again, coming out of hibernation.

Keely: And you know, there was this, I was listening actually to NPR that gave me a little bit of a hope. Usually NPR for me is really depressing.

Melisa: Yeah.

Keely: They were talking about the metaverse and AI stuff and one of the things they were talking about is having to shift, there was this big push at the end of, I wanna, I think it's last year anyway, from a marketing standpoint, this Metaverse, and they have these commercials and stuff, and the quote was, well, people actually really just wanna be touched by other people. And so the Metaverse didn't get the same traction that it thought it would, but AI is taking off.

And please don't ask me to clarify what those two things mean. All I know is like the metaverse is like, is when you're in, you put those glasses on and you're kinda like you're in a video game.

Melisa: Like VR.

Keely: Yeah, like virtual reality. AI are these things that are coming out where, Yeah. Computers are writing essays for us and novels and responding, texting, dating apps.

Melisa: I'm sitting here just like nodding cuz I'm like,I know what AI is and I'm that bitch who, like a friend literally offered me a TV and I was like, I don't feel like I have room for one of those in my, in my space. I'm so like trying to get away from all technology at this moment in my life.

Keely: Yeah, I mean, people still wanna be touched by other people, so yes. Yay, good. The robot, the sex robots are around, but they really haven't taken off much yet. So we'll see to be continued. But in the meantime, before we do little updates, why don't we introduce ourselves uh, my name is Keely C. Helmick. I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm a white, queer, non-binary fem. I am able bodied and went back on the dating apps this weekend. So

Melisa: You did it?

Keely: I did it. So I don't know if inspired is the right word, but I will say feeling the desire to talk about dating in a way that I'm actively involved in it and checking out what's new after some months of a break.

Melisa: Good for you. I can't wait to hear how it goes cuz I'm like, eh, it's there. But nope.

Keely: I'll say I've already been approached. The two conversations I have going on right now are what you would deem, I don't wanna give too much detail, but very much with DMAs, quote unquote non-traditional, so.

So there you go.

Melisa: And I'm Melisa DeSegiurant. I am licensed as a marriage and family therapist and professional counselor. I am white, bisexual, able-bodied. I'm polyamorous. I am polyunsaturated, and I am gender fluid. I use she and they pronouns.

Keely: So yeah, updates. I mean, I'll just continue what I was saying, because there was a phrase that someone used that I'm now taking on one of their profiles, and it said, casually looking for something serious. And I was like, oh my gosh, what? Great phrasing that really encapsulated that is what I am doing.

Melisa: Brilliant.

Keely: I am not in a rush. The slow burn. I think we've alluded to this in multiple episodes, the idea of taking time to get to know, know somebody I see on a, Instagram post. A lot of things around dating, talking about like our nervous system and not necessarily looking for that spark, but taking things slower and letting things build. And so I've been encapsulating that, trying to encapsulate that in my profile and just when I'm talking to people, even like I was at a meet up for the lesbian choir.

We all hung out yesterday and maybe they'll, maybe I'm already sharing my queer joy. I guess I could find another one. Anyway, we're all sitting there talking about dating and people are like, well, what are you looking for? Keely, really? Do that to me.

Melisa: Relationship intentions.

Keely: I know I do like this idea of looking. To hang out with somebody who wants to go on adventures. I think about it a lot as somebody who calms me down and I can hang out with them and wanna fall asleep, but also get really turned on, like I'm comforting to fall asleep, but really turned on at the same time. This is the like nervous system balance.

I had an ex who I had to convince them that it was actually a really positive thing, but they'd be like, gosh, am I so b, like I would fall, just fall asleep on them. And for me, that was such a sign of a good match, but they thought I was, they, they thought I was bored by them. They're like, am I so boring that you fall asleep on?

No, this is the best thing ever. I can like lay on your shoulder and you talk and tell me stories and I fall asleep. This is,

Melisa: Have you seen the new season of Love is blind?

Keely: I just started it. Oh my gosh.

Melisa: Okay.

Keely: There piece about that in there.

Melisa: I'm not gonna say anything else. I'm gonna let you enjoy.

Keely: Ok. Ok. Ok. We'll all have to by the time this airs, by the time this episode releases, I'll probably have finished it by then, so, yes,

Melisa: Totally.

Keely: Yeah. So that's it. I, our topic, you know, when you do your update, Melisa, our topic is really spurred by dating and adventures and people trying new things and coming out literally.

Melisa: Totally. Yeah. Yay. Yeah, I, I'm, well, I say that as a question. I'm well. Am I? I'm well. I am doing well. I will own that. Things are, yeah, I've said this in the last couple weeks, but I have more energy and I am doing more connecting with people. And for me that's not pursuing romantic or sexual connections with new partners.

I really don't feel like I have capacity or bandwidth for that at this particular moment in my life. and I'm feeling so fulfilled in those areas. It's like hard to want anything more than what's currently happening. but that said, I'm doing a lot of socializing with friends. I had a really lovely conversation with a friend the other night about queer relationships, and this is a, an amab queer amab friend.

And we were talking about with like, pansexual and bisexual orientations, that invisibility thing, we talk about that a lot and sometimes it's nice to talk about it with other people who also feel invisible so we don't have to talk about all the shaming and you know, that stuff. But, um, we were talking specifically about relationships that people would look at and assume this is a straight relationship.

And again, that's my issue with categorizing relationships is having an orientation cuz they don't Right. The people within them do. but specifically playing with gender in relationships that appear to others to be a heterosexual relationship.

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: And like playing with gender and sex and like how fucking queer that sex can be like so queer, like more than I ever understood. And so we were talking about that, how like people wouldn't know, they wouldn't assume. Um, and it feels like there's again that like superpower or something in that particular invisibility, but my friend goes, yeah, it's like a relationship mullet, right? Because it's like business in party.

Keely: Hold on, hold. I want you to see people to say that, and I had to laugh, especially, I mean, let's look at my hair.

Melisa: But it felt like the best queerest analogy that both of us were like, yes, yes. Affirm as queer people, we will be the relationship mullets of the, you know, the, the group, I guess, you know, all of us, all of us queer folks but it was one of those just moments where we both like, I think broke into just a guttural kind of laugh. You know, one of those like wonderful co-regulating moments between humans and both just felt really affirmed in our queer ass selves.

Keely: Well, speaking of being affirmed, our topic, talking about the term and the idea of a baby gay, and especially a baby gay, that is what you would assume older, you know? Thirties and above, and what that's like for folks to be dating again. You know, in, in this identity that they are now wearing more openly, whereas before either it was hidden or they hadn't come into their sexuality.

Melisa: Yeah.

Keely: And of course, as always inspired by other podcasts, the piece is a recent episode in Chosen Family where someone was like, baby gay is not the correct term. We should be using feral. And I don't remember the actual word they said. It was feral something. So the thing I heard, or in my brain, I didn't hear this, I can't remember what I heard, but I think of feral ferries, but really this idea of people who are coming out, coming into their sexuality, looking to date and some of the hesitancy and feeling like needing to live up to something. You know, we do touch and there's a lot of discussion around not being enough, not being queer enough, not being trans enough, not being them enough, not being masc enough. All of these ideas of what we're supposed to be, what we're supposed to live up to, not being good enough. We need a queer not being good enough. Cause every time I say not being good enough, I think of, oh, what's her face? Why can't I, am I just, is it a Monday where I'm just like lost for words? Whenever you are not good enough, you know?

Melisa: Yeah.

Keely: She got so much popularity and attention for that. But I do think there's this constant driving force of not good enough. Or not enough of something.

Melisa: Yeah. And I think as we have this conversation, I mean, we could say this about any topic, it is so nuanced and layered, and I think part of what we wanna do is yes come from the perspective of somebody who is maybe would put themselves in the category of a baby gay or a baby queer or someone coming into their queer identity for the first time. And also then, um, some of those fears can be actualized in that other people may or may not want to be in relationship with somebody who is just newly coming into their identity.

So we wanna bring in that piece too. What is it like for other folks who maybe are established and out in their identities and have feelings come up when they're confronted with a possibility of dating someone who's very new and perhaps just coming into their identity for the first time?

Keely: Yeah, and you know, I am very. Mostly comfortable admitting my ideas or thoughts. Often come from social media, sometimes from shows, and people have been watching Harlem at all. This, the second season of Harlem came out and it's a much better sex in the city and there's four characters. And in the first season, It's uh, four women and one of them's queer and the rest are cis hetero.

And then it develops that. Sorry, real quick. Spoiler alert, if you're watching the first season of Harlem, don't wanna hear the spoiler alert. Fast forward a minute. One of the characters, she comes out as queer, but not in the way. Starts developing feelings and attraction towards another woman. And then in the second season, they had this great episode where she is hanging out with her friend who's out and been in lots of relationships, really in the queer community.

And she's getting ready to have a date and sex for the first time with another woman. So they go to a sex store, grab all the things, you know, like different cocks, different sizes, different toys, vibrators, all of these things. She heads in. You see the two characters, her and, and this new person she's dating, they're in bed together, and the woman who's more experienced looks at her and it's just like, we don't need these things.

Right? Right. It's just about you and you can just see this sweet moment where they're connecting as humans. And that's like the ideal state you think of when for a first, for a new experience is another person just being like, this is just about you and me, and having an experience and it shows a beautiful example of taking the pressure off, but also really encompassing that nervousness, that excitement, and then fast forward.

And she's like at her first pride, like she's been going to pride for years. And the joke, I love the line, the joke is that. Oh, like you've gone to Pride for years and seen all your ex-boyfriends. How cliche gay that you, you know, you're the person, you know, you have all these like gay exes, like people that came out after you dated them.

Sophie Shy, but she's, you know, she says, well, this is my first experience as part of the community and they really. I really loved it cuz they did. I thought they did a good job with the cliches, making it entertaining with the cliches, but also making it very human and I felt pretty relatable. And then social commentary about all the white gay men, and especially this is set in New York and all of the women are black and like most of the characters aren't white, so really, really, really good show, I think if it's worth watching, but that's what made me think about this between Chosen Family and this show. And then I'm in conversation with people that are at different stages of coming into themselves and their sexuality.

Melisa: Yeah. Well, I think the example you gave from this show really shows we have all these assumptions and that's part of what leads to the anxiety and assumptions about what sex is and what queer sex is. And then even outside of just the sexual piece of a relationship, what queer relationships are, you know, and, and again, it's, we have fear because there's assumptions, but also maybe less, examples that we've seen throughout our life. So less quote unquote clarity, although I still argue that even though there's all these examples of like cis hetero relationships, We can also challenge those examples.

So I don't know that examples are always super helpful when they're problematic ones. but that when we don't have any example, we're like, I don't know, everyone must know what they're doing. And I'm not in, I don't have the knowledge. Tell me the knowledge. I mean, the amount of times like. I have personally.

Wow. We're gonna get personal. when I was coming to my queer identity, I'm like literally looking up in like my books and online, like, how do you do these certain things? I don't know.

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: I don't know. And I want to know. Someone needs to teach me.

Keely: Well, and you know, you and I talk about, so if we rewind a little, but I think about someone listening and being like, oh, well what are the ways that we talk about this? And the first thing is this assumption that there is one way to do it.

Melisa: Right.

Keely: Just that we are always sitting here when in, especially in a sex therapy session, if we're the cis hetero couple, we're helping them by saying, hey, there's not just one way. What are all the ways that you can explore? Same goes for any human interacting with other humans is there's not one way to have sex with a certain body, with certain genitalia.

Melisa: Yeah, it's true. It's really true. And I, not only like we, we have to learn that experientially really, and it's just part of that is the beginner's mind that we talk about all the time. Come at every sexual experience, assuming you don't know, even if you've had sex with that person before, a lot of pleasure can come out of that.

Keely: Well, and I think there's this emphasis of having an answer. So the other piece of this, or one of the other piece is so many pieces to this. I hear people because I've been out for so long and well, we're better for worse, dated quite a few people, and one of the things was, well, how do I know if this person is interested in me?

And the fact of the matter people, there's not, it's not black and white. It's not like, oh, I, it's not always black and white. Sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, I'm so into this person. Boom. But there's something really yummy about, there's this, there can be this space of, I kind of like this person. And this back and forth interplay. And when attraction is based on more than looks. It takes time to know if you're really interested in someone or not. And so the dance of, oh, well, trying to psychoanalyze how a certain person said something or what they, a gesture. was it just a friendly gesture or was that flirting?

Melisa: Right.

Keely: It's a little both.

Melisa: Yeah. I mean, and the more we've, we have done this podcast, Keely, the more I've gotten on board with like, you can ask.

Keely: Yes.

Melisa: You can take the temperature. You can say like, Hey, like are we, is this like, are you feeling friendship here? Do you feel anything more? You can literally just ask.

Keely: Well, and in, in that directness, another question I get is when I go on a date with somebody, should I disclose that this is my first. And my answer to that is always like, you don't owe anybody anything.

Melisa: Right.

Keely: If you want to disclose it, great. If you don't wanna disclose it, fine, like you don't. You can talk about it, how you wanna talk about it.

Melisa: Yeah. And, and I, I like the way you put the focus Keely back on, you know, oneself. We don't owe somebody else any of that information right away. And if it is more, it is, if it is more helpful for your own anxiety to name that, then name that, that's also okay.

I think though in this whole conversation, I guess what I would encourage people to look at is what is underneath, like even the questions, um, I brought up earlier or, or the, the concern about like, I wanna know, I don't know the things that I don't know and I need to know them, like, check into what's underneath that.

Is it, are you apologizing to somebody for not knowing? Are you feeling insecure? Are you feeling like you are going to be unwanted? If you reveal that you are not experienced in whatever particular thing you're talking about, because maybe we can normalize some of that. Like it's okay to not know and actually.

To my benefit. I have experienced this in the past. There are some people who are like, oh, you don't know. Let me show you. I'm so excited that you don't know. Right? Lke we need those queers, thank, thank you for your service. I am so grateful. I have come into my own now.

Keely: Well, yeah, there's, that's the thing is there is a different style, a different desire for each person.

And also when you think about it, going back to beginner's mind, whether a person has had a lot of sexual partners or not, what those sexual partners genitalia's are or gender is, it's still their first experience with you.

Melisa: Right?

Keely: So the two of you are coming together. And that interaction is in and of itself completely new.

Melisa: Right?

Keely: Because the two of you as humans have never connected in that way before.

Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.

Keely: And so the assumption, or I think even when there's more fluidity within sexual encounters, even like sometimes this also comes to place sometimes of like the bottom, top situation. Bottom, top or side. Like what do you.

We have some hard nos. Every lot. Most people have hard nos, but in the end, if you can come into a situation with some fluidity and curiosity, who knows how you're gonna wanna interact with that other person's energy.

Melisa: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's always gonna be a new experience if you allow it to be. I mean, I don't dunno why, then it becomes biro and then we see you in therapy.

Keely: No, I was gonna say, I also, I dunno if you experiences ever Melisa, but I have this idea of who I am sexually or how I identify, and then people will be like, really, I see you as x, y, z. I'm like, really? Huh?

Melisa: I hear that. I actually had an experience really re this is like a queer joy, but in the midst of our episode, I had an experience recently of talking with a partner about how I experience my gender.

Like that's something we'll come back to in our conversations. And I was talking about how. My assumption is that wouldn't be noticeable, you know? Cuz I'm like, yeah, I mean I just look super femme. So like, okay, like that's what people are gonna project onto me. And this was somebody who was able to affirm, oh no, I feel when you flip, like it's very obvious.

And I was like, say what? You know, This is so exciting. Tell me more. And that was so validating and I know that was coming from a genuine place. So like, That's my mid episode, queer joy.

Hey, Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes buddy. Melissa story perfectly illustrates how magic happens when you communicate with your partners. But sometimes it can be helpful to have some prompts to help get the ball rolling. That's why we made a free relationship check-in worksheet with five exercises to strengthen your communication muscles.

Download it on Connective Therapy, Collective website, and sign up for our monthly mental health newsletter while you're at it. Lincoln the episode description. All right. Back to the show.

Keely: Well, and then through that, especially when we're talking about somebody who is coming into themselves, learning new parts of themselves, dating new people, exploring the queer community in a way they haven't before, exploring dating in a way they haven't before.

There are things that you're gonna continue to learn and shift and change, and maybe you thought. You identified in this one way, but you actually identified this other way. And that's not to negate. There are some people that are very much, there are some people that really identify as tops don't want penetrations, touch-me-not tops, service tops. There are some people that really identify with, the bottom identity. So I'm not sitting here being like, every person should be switchy. But even within those identities, especially if you're new, if you're newly exploring and you're coming out as a feral newbie, maybe just stop using the word baby gay. But I mean, it has such context. Anyway. Can you allow yourself to be open and just exploring and see what it feels like?

Melisa: Yeah. Embracing that discomfort of not totally having it figured out when you may feel pressured to have your elevator pitch about all your labels right away.

Keely: Yeah. I like it this way and this is not to negate because I feel like we're also, oh, I was gonna use a term that's not very so friendly. I was gonna say shoot ourselves in the foot, but we sit here and we're like, oh, we have the stars worksheet. And go through what your likes and things you don't like and your desires and wants.

Okay. Yes. Those are still good things to do and we all are constantly changing. So if you're using guides and thinking about yourself and what you like, update that.

Melisa: Absolutely. Yeah. Come back to it. Use that as a starting point, not necessarily the destination. I know we've been focusing a lot on like the sexual interaction, but there's another piece that keeps coming up clinically with, some of my clients who were newly exploring queer relationships, and it's, it's just, it's like PDA, it's being perceived by others as queer and public.

Mm-hmm. And some of these folks are people who have been non monogamous, have been sexually in queer experiences, but have not been perceived by the public to be queer because part of their identity is being invisible. Right?

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: And so that is another piece of this, that can bring excitement, it can bring validation.

It can also bring fear, discomfort, safety questions, um, attention that, you know, becomes unwanted. So that's another piece. And I think as I say that it does make me think then about the feelings and experience of the person who maybe is more experienced in their identity is out, has been queer for years and is out and everyone knows that can be really hard for that, that person.

Not always, but it can be hard, um, to then make space for somebody who's maybe really uncomfortable with being perceived as queer.

Keely: Yeah, yeah.

Melisa: And so holding space for both of those people's experiences. Cuz I, I never want to say, No, you should be open to every single being in any, any kind of career relationship, even if it makes you really uncomfortable.

Same with non monogamy. Like I have disclosed that my relationships are invisible. There are some people who would not choose that would not feel good for them, and that's valid, right? So there are some people that may not want to be in relationship with a newly emerging queer person, and that's valid. There are some people who are definitely into it.

So find them.

Keely: Yeah. And also, can we as a community, be more open to folks that are in different situations? And just because someone hasn't been in a queer relationship and is in their thirties or forties or fifties, they still have a lot of it life experience and a lot of experience as a human. And can't we give them a chance?

Melisa: Totally. And if you don't wanna be in relationship in a sexual, romantic way, you can be in relationship in other ways. You could be a cheerleader, you could be a hype guy. Like you could be like, tell me more about these queer fantasies.

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: I don't wanna partake, but I will help you find that person. Like that's, you know, be a friend.

Keely: Yeah. And I think, you know, really the general sense I get from. Who are in this position currently just feeling so much pressure and let's help them. Let's help everyone take some of the pressure off. I mean, I've been out in the community for many years and I'm still feeling pressure going out, dating.

I mean, mine is wrapped up in other things. Some of it is how I now, I mean, Melisa me getting a haircut, it is wild. I know we all know this. But the way that I'm perceived now and the way that people interact with me because of a haircut.

Melisa: I know.

Keely: Whoa.

Melisa: It's a thing. It's a thing. Every time I freshly shave the side of my head, it's like night and day. I'm a completely like different person. I don't feel different, but the public sees me differently.

Keely: Really? And some of it's like cool and some of it's like, oh, but I will say it's just fascinating cuz even like I had mentioned on an earlier episode, episode a couple of times back by Ashley, like being identified by a lesbian as a butchy.

Who, wait, what? Looking back, who we talking to? Wait, he's looking at me. What? and so there's also an interesting piece around this of how we see ourselves, how others are interpreting. Yeah. And guess what, maybe the newly out person isn't being perceived as a baby queer, as a baby gay, as a feral newbie, right.

Maybe it's just you just blend right in.

Melisa: Totally. It's okay to be new at something. It's really okay. It's okay for sex to be awkward. I have said this bef I've said this before and I have assigned it to a client. I'm like, go have yourself some awkward sex. You know, like it is okay. We have to learn those things and the more we can find partners who make it comfortable to be uncomfortable together, sometimes in the not knowing, the more healing we can have, you know, and the more playfulness.

Keely: And let's just be real. Even if two people or more than two people get together who have a bunch of experience in the queer relationship sexual dynamic, that doesn't mean the first time is awesome. There's still like not great sex at the beginning. Sometimes

Melisa: Totally.

Keely: Not great. One night stands. Sometimes one night stands can be awesome, but just because you have experience doesn't make you compatible with someone either or it doesn't make you great in bed.

Melisa: Doesn't even mean you have done the same things sexually.

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: I think that's one thing that, that can really be different about queer relationships, and I can't really speak to personally sex between like people with penises. Like I, I have not experienced that, but I will say, when you're talking about p and v sex, there's this assumption that it's all penetrative, and that's the only part of it.

So therefore, everyone knows the whole script, which again, as I, I said it in that way to show how problematic it is and limiting that is, but that is the assumption. And so then, for example, when you have two people with Volvos, you're like, well, wait, how do we, how do, what do we do? You know? And like in my experience It could be wildly different. Like you can have lots of different experiences. You know, I know in my first long-term relationship with a vulva owning person,there was really very little penetrative sex and there weren't really a lot of sex toys. Completely different from my next partner, you know, so we, people have sex in so many different ways, really, regardless of genitalia.

But the story we see from porn is like, you know, I don't know that there's only one way and we must figure that out.

Keely: Yeah. I will speak, this is just random, but for those I have, we have, I have to get the new book, but the updated edition of Trans Bodies, Trans Cells has a whole list of trans-specific porn sites.

So just, Ooh. We'll have to post that when I get, I was talking to my best friend who's working on a dissertation and they were going through the new edition. They're like, oh my gosh. They're like, this is how dorky we are. They're like reading out loud the book, and they're like, whoa. The sex part. They're like, look at all these like different sites.

A lot of you all may already know about these, but I thought, I'm like, that is a great resource. Some of them may not be up and running still, cuz even a new addition of something is still, when it went to print, it's probably at least a year old, but sorry, that was a side stepping sex thing.

Anyway, but also for newbies.

Melisa: Resources. Yeah, finding,

Keely: Go ahead.

Melisa: Reliable places to get information. That's the other thing. Find like reliable places.

Keely: Well, and I think because there is something you said, okay, watch, check out things. And even when you're checking things out, that can be very limiting and just try it out.

I think to wrap this up on the dating part of it or just the hanging out part of it is especially, you know, the sapphic love It's very common. Anything outside of cis gay male land where they, you know, they, there's a different script entirely. So I, I just said Melisa. I have not partaken, I am envious sometimes how I'm like, you just go on an app and like hook up and you are having sex with someone. I'm like, what?

Melisa: Make it happen.

Keely: Yeah. It's impressive to me sometimes. I'm very impressed sometimes and try with this dance of not knowing or being really hesitant, you can like embrace that and be like, Ooh, and sit with that yummy kind of crush feeling, but also practice rejection.

There's very few. I mean, once in a, most people aren't gonna be offended if you ask them out. That's a nice thing to have happen, and I think it goes too much the other way where people are so hesitant to ask someone out. And so everyone is kinda like, oh, don't ask, don't ask.

And it's like, I think practicing and getting used to rejection is a really, Good skill.

Melisa: Totally. And if you can like reframe it in your mind that the goal here is not necessarily to score a date or to even find like your partner or your person, it's to practice asking people out. Yeah. And it's to practice receiving their response.

Whether that's affirmative or it's an, I don't know, or it's a flat out rejection.

Keely: Yeah, go and try it. And you also get to say, no, you don't have to just because a queer person asks you out on a date if you don't want to. Obviously, I mean, I'm saying the obvious, but yes. Practice, say, practice, say no.

Practice having no said to you. There's more and more feedback I'm hearing is I talk more and more openly about this just with people outside of the therapy office as well. There's something really great about hearing people turn you down in a way that's really direct. It's really kind.

Melisa: Yeah. It helps people know like where they are and where to go from there.

Keely: Yeah. And future episode, not today much rather have a direct no than be strung along. Because that is something else that can happen, is you can be strung along. And that is not the good, yummy liminal space of crushy feelings.

That's just like, that's a whole nother thing. So going there today, but we, you know, many people like to try to avoid that. directness, curiosity. Damn it. You are good.

So on that note, we get to transition to Queer joy. Queer joy. Yay.

Melisa: Do you need a minute, Keely? Do you have your queer joy ready to go?

Keely: I have a couple just fun little queer joys. I mean, yesterday, one of my queer joys was meeting up. One of these said people who is newly coming into their sexuality and we hung out and helped each other get on dating apps together and it was kind of fun.

Melisa: Yeah.

Keely: And I mean, it's sweet. It was sweet that they saw me as like an experienced person. And also I'm like, well, you know, you also wanna be you. And like, I don't know everything. I mean, if you're looking for a long-term relationship, it's been a while since I've been in a long-term relationship in the monogamous sense, like this person is looking for a monogamous relationship.

So I'm like, I am not necessarily expert actually in long-term monogamy, other than I was married to someone for nine years back in my twenties. But other than that, Not that great of monogamy. So, and that was not monogamous by the way. So yeah. Rewind. I am personal. So that was really fun to talk about dating with this person.

And then after that I went and met up with, the lesbian choir and had some hangout time with a bunch of queer folks there as well. So that was a lot of fun. And just like a, I went to Memorial Services weekend and I, one of my, my best friend supported me and went to the service with me for my aunt and uncle.

And we were looking at these pictures of my family and they're like, looking at this picture of my grandma and I was like, is your grandma gay? Like back in the day, and I was, I thought that too. And then they were like, oh my gosh, is that like I shouldn't be analyzing your family? And I was like, no, but I can analyze my family for a shit.

I would not be surprised if my grandma was gay.

Melisa: I love that.

Keely: So that was a fun moment. And also just being in this like very cis hetero like, celebration of life, me and my best friend's queer asses being there representing, and it really makes a difference in that space to have another queer person, especially one of my besties there with me.

Yeah. Because you forget, I forget how. I'm so surrounded by queerness and then I step into this like church in the suburbs and it's like all cis hetero people, and I'm like, Ugh. One of these things is not like the other, so, Yeah, lots of gatherings. And then I have my cou- uh, not cousin. I had my nephew's, birthday party as well.

So like this, like circle life and death. I think that's part of what, honestly, I think that's what part of inspired me to want to get out on the dating apps again and actively dating is because I'm like, you know what? I had some grief period. I had some mourning of lost relationships. And relationship transitions.

I'm like, okay, but you know what? I'm still alive and I wanna like be alive in connection with others.

Melisa: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Keely: So queer joy. Queer joy.

Melisa: I love it. Well, uh, what's my queer? I, I had plenty. sometimes I get like, oh, I'm gonna say this. and it's not even something. But I necessarily need to be like, feel vulnerable about the whatever, or insecure about, no.

I did the thing that we've talked about once before, ways to spice up relationships. I went out sort of on like a date with a partner that I already have, pretending like we didn't know each other.

Keely: Yeah.

Melisa: We did that whole thing and like I was not prepared. This was proposed to me like two minutes before walking into the place, so I really did not have time to fully develop a character here.

And I'd always thought that if I had done that with a partner, I would be so prepared and have my, you know, like I went to school for acting like, I'm like, oh my gosh, gimme my backstory and my, you know, I will rock this. In lieu of that, I proceeded to like essentially be myself using different details of my life, right?

In a different name, but also then like was confronted with how awkward I am on fucking first dates. I was like, this sounds like the ideal thing, right? To like, oh, how exciting, right? And I'm like, number one, I don't like first dates. Number two, I really hate getting hit on at a bar. Like when I don't know the person and I'm like, wait a minute, like.

I need to rethink this as being like the scenario for me, like, holy crap. but I will say I did have a lot of fun and first kisses with people that you've already been in relationship with a long time. Like that was surprising how like intimate that felt like we were very much in character. Both of us had some acting experience in our background, so that was really exciting and cool to see.

Yeah, so it was really, I did have a very good time. I, you know, and at the end of the day, like I still got asked out on a second date.

So I didn't see anything that he didn't like, you know.

Keely: Well, I say like, our first date, the purpose is, you know, see if you wanna go on a second date and the pressure's off there.

Melisa: Oh, that's totally, I do have questions about what the bartender thought because I'm like, wow, this went real well. Like for someone who didn't, cause I right. I was there first and they seemed to be a stranger. So it's just, I don't know. that's kind of amusing to think about, especially if we go do the same thing at the same spot again.

I feel like that would be really fun. Like really confused. The staff, like do they have amna-? Do they keep forgetting? You know?

Keely: Oh my gosh.

Melisa: Great, but needless to say, um, that was really fun and it was a first for me and definitely not a last.

Keely: Well, lovely, lovely. It's that time again. Thank you everyone for listening today. Please check out as always our Instagram accounts, our Facebook, our websites. New things coming out every month. Sign up for our newsletter to hear what's new and exciting in our world and things we have to offer. Otherwise, I hope you all have a queer and joyful week.

Thanks for listening to queer relationships, queer joy. A podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Keely C. Helmick Melissa DeSegiurant with audio edited by me and Ley Supapo Bernido. I'm your producer, Cardinal marking. Inter music is by bad snacks. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it.

Tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at media at Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our Instagram at queer relationships, queer joy, or our website www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.

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