The Queer Joy Podcast; two relationship therapists exploring what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
In this episode we interview Alison and Tanner Jamison of "Hey Babe, I'm Queer?!" podcast. Now married, these two highschool sweethearts from the Christian midwest talk about their journey into polyamory, kink, community, and gender exploration. They give great advice for any couples wondering how they can enter that space as well.
Alison Jamison's website: alisonjamison.com
"Sex Is A Funny Word" by Cory Silverburg
Put QRQJ into action with our 5 question worksheet. Get it here: bit.ly/QRQJworksheet
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More Queer Joy on our Connective Therapy Collective website.
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TRANSCRIPT
Alison: After we were married for about seven years, I think it was I asked him out on a date and I said Hey babe, I'm not straight! And Tanner's response was... Tanner: Oh well, I guess neither am I. Hello, everyone. And welcome again to queer relationships. Queer joy. Melisa: We're happy to have you. I'm one of your hosts, Melissa DeSegiurant. Keely: My name is Kelly C Helmick. I am the owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a non-binary gender fluid, queer white femme person. Still solo. I think that's it for now. Practicing solo, I guess non-monogamy solo, but whatever. Melisa: And I'm Melissa. I am a gender queer white person, bisexual polyamorous, solo, poly. I'm happy to be here. Keely: And our wonderful guests. Will you introduce yourself? Alison: Yeah, I am Alison Jamison. I am a white CIS gendered. She, her pronouns, I kind of flow between bi pan queer labels and I am also non-monogamous but mostly monogamous right now due to life circumstances. Tanner: So yes, due to COVID everything's due to COVID Tanner Jamison. He him. I do consider myself gender fluid. I present so much masculine, so much male. And it's been, I mean, 30 plus years I've been he/him. I'm okay with that. Maybe at some point I'll evolve to he/ them or whatever, but right now he, him feels like it fits best for me. But gender fluid bi-curious I guess yeah, we've non-monogamous right. I mean, we've Maybe we'll get more into that, I suppose. Yeah. Keely: We'll get to hear the story. Well, and so for our listeners who this, they both host a podcast called Hey babe, I'm queer. Yes. And so we're really excited to have you be able to share your story and also hear about both personally, individually and as a couple, of course, because this is about relationships. Who gets to start talking? Alison: I usually go first because that's just how I am, the short and sweet version is we're high school sweethearts. And then we decoupled for Tanner to join the military. And I had a college experience, you know, we kind of separated our ways found our way back to each other. And after we'd known each other for about a decade, I proposed to Tanner and he said, yes. And um, After we were married for about seven years, I think it was I asked him out on a date and I said Hey babe, I'm not straight! And Tanner's response was... Tanner: Oh well, I guess neither am I. I love that. Keely: That's the best part, like seriously. In the podcast when you're telling the story and please listeners, listen, you know, they have a full story. They just like build up really beautifully to it. But I love that response. Oh, neither am I! Tanner: Yeah. I mean, just a sidebar on that. Right. I, I, I feel like we'll get into a little bit in the podcast too. Right. It wasn't something that I was planning on coming back out to her. But, and it wasn't honestly, even until she had the conversation with me that really like cemented for me, like, oh yeah, that's why I've done this before. And that's why I felt this way previously. And yeah, I guess I'm not either. Let's figure it out. Melisa: A moment of clarity. Alison: It was really amazing, like of all of the scenarios that I played out in my head ahead of time of having that conversation, like that was not even on the buffet of possible reactions. So it was like, it gets better from there. Right. It was so surprising. Like, oh, well that's delightful. And then where do we go from here? Keely: Yeah. And so what have you been navigating since that date? Seven years ago? Alison: Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that also surprised me is I had not really experienced any sort of. Anything beyond like kissing with a female partner. And I knew that it's something that I was curious about. And in that same conversation, Tanner is like, well, why don't you see if you want to find a girlfriend? Tanner: Should we find you a girlfriend in that? You know, like, I'm like, all right, let's, let's figure out what do we go from here if you like women too? Even though at that time, right? Like I'm processing, I maybe I kind of feel like a woman sometimes, but. I don't I'm I'm cisgendered as far as presenting. So, you know, I don't have the parts and everything, so, but so I was like, Hey, if you love women too, you want to experience that let's um, enjoy having sex with women. Let's maybe do we need to find you a girlfriend? Alison: Yeah. And so that like really opened the door for us looking at other forms of relationships. And I grew up in a very, not like evangelical household, but very religious upbringing. Still kind of moving through some of that like religious trauma that I can see as it was in my youth. I never even knew. I think some of the options that were out there and the different types of relationships that were available, because we had grown up in and had been immersed in as a couple in, you know, straight monogamous relationships, even though I know now that like some of our friends that we were in, you know, like parenting classes together have come out to us now. Because it's just not a thing that we are from the Midwest and Midwest nice is very real. And you don't talk about impolite topics like sex and relationships and money and politics and religion and all the juiciest things Melisa: everyone's having these lives, but not sharing about them. Tanner: Right? Yeah. Yeah. I always thought it was weird that we don't talk about things that matter the most, as you know, And what, what we hold near and dear, whether it be religion or, you know, love and sex and stuff. It's so I guess that's part of my motivation for being on a podcast, being open with the world on our story and stuff. Alison: Yeah. Get more stories out there so that the people who feel like they're alone. Know that they aren't. Tanner: Yeah. To your point. Sorry. We had someone that we went through birthing class with. We a six year old presented, you know, cis-gendered for sure. Didn't have any sort of inkling either way. We'd go on hikes and parks and stuff as the kids were really young. But once we had the podcast they listened to it and like, send us a message directly. Like, Hey, by the way, I think I'm, you know, maybe not so gender binary myself kind of thing. So that's pretty cool. That's fun. Almost made it worthwhile. Keely: Oh, that's really yeah. That's really cool. So getting to hear people's feedback and people then coming out to you and telling you like, Hey, I'm not straight or, Hey, I'm not CIS. And getting to share that. Oh, that's really awesome. Okay. So you have the date, you had this conversation and then you go back home. And then you got, did you get, did you get a girlfriend Alison? Alison: Well I think for me at that point in time, Tanner: trying to think of what home exactly was, Alison: it was, we've moved a lot in our relationships. So I think we had. Seven or eight different homes or apartments. We averaged- Tanner: in the past 15 years or so?We average about Two and a half years per location. Alison: We are not the roots putting down kind of folks. So yeah, it was like what, what does that look like? And for me another part of that conversation was coming out and accepting my kink side of myself which I didn't know was an important part of me. And in that conversation, it felt a little safer, I think, to explore that part of my sexual identity more than the directly to a girlfriend, because I was a little intimidated because here I am in my thirties and like, What the hell does it even mean to like find a girlfriend or date somebody and be in a relationship? I felt like I had a lot more learning to do and how to navigate those waters. And so I felt comfortable looking at like the kink community and starting to build relationships that way. So that is what we did. We, you know, found a local. You know, FET community and started exploring that way. I think there was some like online quiz I found where we like classify what kind of kinks we were both into. So we could kind of explore what that looked like as a partnership. And through that experience, we were able to meet some more open couples and, and start kind of exploring that route rather than just going straight to me solo dating, because that was very intimidating and also like with a small kid and like it's there are schedules to be managed. Melisa: You bring up the word community too, which it's yeah, that was going to be my question. Ha, you know, having come from a place where this wasn't talked about, you didn't have all this exposure to then being launched into a different, you know, relationship structure. It sounds like the kink community kind of gave you sort of answering my question. Definitely the support that social support you needed and other, and maybe the podcast to drawing other people to you. Alison: Yeah. I feel like I'm doing a lot of talking, but I kind of jumped the lead on this part of the relationship too. But it's for me, like I'm a doer, like, we're like, oh, we want to remodel this room. Like we buy the paint the next day. Like we just, we kind of go in and we're like, oh, Tanner: as you can always go, you can always change it and go back to something else. Right. I mean, it's. With certain decisions, obviously you can't really go back on, but a lot of stuff, right. It's let's go forward, move forward. Just let's move forward and meet new people. And we're not real shy. I mean, we have our own podcast. Right. Um, So it's get out there in the community and figured out, okay, what does this mean for us? So start doing research and see there's local communities. Great. There's a great kink community here. There's actually a couple Different communities that local to us is nice. But just doing a whole bunch of honestly was it FetLife the app or website? Doing a whole bunch of like, you know, just finding local people that feel like we might get along with like, you know, find out that there's like a meetup at a bar. So go and just meet some folks. And get to know, and like, through that found some other folks that actually we got along better with. Now some of our closest friends um, from that community. Right. And that's honestly, I think that was probably our first, really, for me, introduction to poly and open, I know you had listened to the Savage love. Before and learned about ethical non-monogamy and introduced me to that then but that's really, I feel like their first chance to like live it. Now that we're being open with each other. And I think another thing too is important for us as a couple to explore that. I feel like whether it was because we... I'm sure. At some point we can unpack exactly what it was, whether it was the comfort in each other or the shared history. But to be able to find you a girlfriend was more of like us go find you a girlfriend, rather than you go find you a girlfriend. Because we are committed to each other pretty committed to each other as a married couple. And so we, I, in my mind, we wanted to explore that together. Alison: Yeah, but also like knowing that we're probably going to make mistakes and mistakes were made, you know, like figuring out, like, what are the boundaries? What are the conversations you have to have ahead of time being willing to like when mistakes happen, have those open. Hard conversations to figure out, like, why did that feel bad in the situation? Like, what was I not able to say in the moment that I need to make sure that I say now and really kind of work through those things. And also like, I think because I had this awareness and I was learning more about myself, I have been kind of taking a dive into the, like the queer and the poly communities a little bit longer than Tanner has, because I was like learning that about myself. So like wanted to learn more about it, to like figure out how do I really identify? And so. Because I knew some things ahead of time. Like I also knew like, don't do this, like, don't be a unicorn hunter and just like, look to bring a third single female you know, like if you, like, I also am pro sex work. Like I think if you, you know, like, Places where that can be the best way to start bringing in other partners. And like, if you're doing it in a safe and ethical way, like those are important things, but, and then really like talking what's here about what's going on for me. What do I want? Do I think, like, I think part of the kink thing was like we had been high school sweethearts. I'm like, I don't know if I want you to be the person who is like a dominant for me. Like, I don't know if I see you in that way or that I want to see you in that way. So like, what does that mean for our relationship? So it was really like navigating, like, okay, if we're opening the books on all the stuff that it could be, what, what role do I want you to play? Because I do want to be partnered with you. So like what, what do you bring in as a partner? What can I ask if you're interested in and then what else do we want to bring into our relationship? And do we do that through other partners? It's been a lot of conversations Tanner: though. Yeah. And I think I'll bounce off of that. Right? What I'm thinking in my mind the whole time is luckily we've had this foundation of conversation. Her and I are both pretty skilled at having open conversation, honest conversations with our partners and with each other. And I mean, with the folks in our lives, right. Not just to us as a partnership, but you know, with my mom and other folks, right. Instead of like holding your feelings back and like, I don't want to say anything to offend, even though that's the part of the world we came from, that's not who we are. Right. We're very much more east coasters or coasters, I guess, looking at the west coast, maybe the Pacific Northwest. I'm not sure, but yeah. Oh, we're Keely: very passive aggressive in the Northwest actually. So there's, there's, there's some definite passive aggressive. That's kind of the stereotype. I shouldn't say everyone, but yeah. Tanner: Fair enough. Yeah. So then we have a real good foundation of conversation to be able to check in with each other. And because we do have such a shared history, we're able to, you know, maybe pick up on nonverbal clues and then check in stuff like that. So it's, it's been an adventure. I think all in all net positive she, mistakes were made for sure, but I think we're, you know, better, stronger couple now. And Alison: I think, I do think that that's been one of our. Key success. Markers for us is like being able to recognize when we fucked up. Are you explicit? Cause I swear. And be like, that was, that was a fucked up thing that just happened and like taking ownership when we're the ones who do the fucking up and being able to like talk through that. And then also like when we have talked through. Letting it go. And I think that that's really hard sometimes of like giving that forgiveness. And being able to, you know, not hold a grudge, like that is not a thing that was demonstrated perfectly in growing up. And so it's been like a really interesting journey as we kind of worked through some of these things. And I think like even couples who aren't going through trying out ethical non-monogamy. Will still hold grudges over, you know, like you didn't take the trash out. Keely: Oh, oh my gosh. Yes, always. I was curious because people listening. Do you have. Like a script that you were using for these conversations. Did you use something from one of the known ethical non-monogamy books? Where were you pulling some of this? Because I think people listening are going to be like, oh, wow. Like I wish I could be talking to my partner better. Or how do you have these really hard conversations? Alison: Well, I hired a coach. And then I became one! So that's how, that's how we kind of came to this. And for me, it's been allowing me to be the observer of the conversation and not just an active participant. So for me, that's like stating what I am feeling and like why I'm feeling that way. And. Being able to say, like, this is the facts as I see them, like, this is the situation as I see it, this is how I'm feeling. And this is why is because like, I think that you doing this means that. And it gives him the opportunity to be like, well, that isn't my intention. I don't want those actions to mean that way. And if those actions don't feel good, then let's figure out a compromise or something else that works better. So that's been the biggest thing. I know that Tanner had some training through landmark education who do a lot of. That thought and feeling stuff. Tanner: Yeah. It's very similar to, I dunno, Thought Work or whatever the terminology is exactly. Right. But being able to distinguish actions separate from feelings and being able to distinguish, you know, facts or the fact of the matter. As opposed to the way you feel about it or to your point, like observing right. Noticing when, oh, that made me feel that way. Like as you're even as you're going in the conversation. Yeah, I had done some classes back in high school. And so actually I had a pretty good foundation for recognizing when feelings come up, when, when, when my shit gets up in my face. And or to my detriment noticing when other people's shit gets in the way, even before they do um, So Melisa: it's brilliant the way you all talk about it too, because it's not just then ownership of like, when somebody messes up, but it's actual ownership of your own feelings and then the meaning that you're making out of whatever's happening. That's a piece I can see for so many people. I feel like we've talked about this before, but there's so many, like "you" statements that happen and, and a lot of couples therapy sessions where. You did this, you made me feel this way, you did this and it becomes this like defensive attack, which is so not the dynamic. I hear you two talking about right now. Alison: Yeah. Well, it's, it's funny. One of the episodes that is coming out now, or just recently came out, we talk about our favorite fight, which was about when the dishes should be done. Because. I was making that mean that he didn't respect me or our house. And my brain would then follow that like little rabbit trail down the hole to like, oh, he doesn't love and respect me and our marriage is going to be over in like a week. It took some work for me to be able to see that, but we, it came to a head and I was like, Why are you not doing the dishes and like crying in the kitchen, over dishes not being done and Tanner, because he'd had this training in high school. And I wasn't aware of Thought Work at that time. It was like, you know, like you can change how you feel about this. Like, you don't have to feel this. And I was like, well, I'm not a robot. I have feelings and emotions. So maybe that's not the best time to tell your partner that like they can control how they feel about a situation, but we that kind of opened the doors for us, for me. Anyways like figuring out like, well, what the hell is he talking about? And then like two weeks later, I heard my coach on a podcast and she's like, your thoughts can create your feelings and those drive actions that you take and reactions that you create. And I was like, oh, she has something there. There was the teacher that I needed at the time. So Keely: I was like, wait, Tanner was right. Oh dangit! Yes. Tanner: I don't, I don't even, we don't need to go down that route. I was right and I don't need to take credit for that. Right. I just have. You know, you came around to it. There's different avenues to come to things. And often without that type of foundational Thought Work, right, it's hard to see that from your own partner. You're too close. You're too attached. It's you need that. You know, an independent third party, I say independent because they're not, I mean, they're invested too, right? Oftentimes the quality ones, I think. Yeah. But yeah, it's it, it's hard to come from your own partner, especially when you're in a heated argument in the kitchen, over the dirty dishes, Alison: tears streaming down my face just to paint the beautiful picture. Tanner: But yeah, that's all I was trying to tell you. I fully admit the delivery was poor. Keely: What would you say is working well or what have you, what has shifted and is working really well now, Tanner: the podcast is working really well. Alison: Yeah. It's really been fun because in this past year I have invited Tanner into my business. So doing the podcast together, um spending that time intentionally together, like intentionally having conversations, I think around stuff that we probably would have conversations about anyways, but we're being really thoughtful about like, What do we wish we would have had access to when we were first coming out to each other? What kind of connections do we wish that we would have, you know, seven years ago when this was first happening and what can we share with folks that. Um, You know, lessons that we've learned throughout this process. And I think that that's been really helpful to revisit those and like, be like, oh yeah, like we fucking killed that. Or like, oh, this is something that we're still having issues with. You know, for example, I struggle with saying like, this is a gift that I want because we're like in the holiday season, it was just my birthday. I have a hard time like asking for what I want in that regard. Other places. I have no problem asking for what I want, but when it comes back- and I still sometimes default into that, like he should be a mind reader. It comes to those what Melisa: I want. I don't have to ask for advocate I'm with you there. Alison: Yeah. We've had some really good conversations around that Tanner: How's that working out for you? Melisa: Know, I have to learn my skills too. Alison: Yes. It's this past year being really intentional about the conversations we're having has led to even better like spontaneous conversations, which is really fun. And really like the foundation of our relationship has always been talking and writing letters. And because, you know, we went to the high school in the, you know, early two thousands, late nineties, early two thousands. And he was in the military at that time. Like we would only get brief. Communications or like every couple of months we would talk on the phone for like two hours and then not be able to communicate for a long time. And so I think that the conversational relationship that we have has really kind of built that foundation so that we can talk about the hardship. Tanner: Yeah. From my side of it. What's the intentionality right. That's really going well, the intentionally scheduling time. Of course it always shifts with, with, you know, we have a kiddo six it's always shifting you know, trying to run the household together and, and raise a kid, but scheduling the time to have some meaningful conversations. Yeah. It's the structure of the podcast certainly helps, you know, guide that along and form some structure for it. And so that we have to keep doing it and, you know, committing to an episode a week, you know, to keep doing it, to keep, keep going and you can't push off too long is, is not only to your point, like rehashing, you know, our story and getting out for other folks. And then diving into, you know, what's going on with us right now. But yeah, it's certainly sparking other things, you know, that we didn't intend to necessarily talk about, but we are talking about it now. Alison: Yeah. And the other thing that I think is going really well is we're both all in, on the other person's dreams. And like, I might get a little funky with that, but um, Like he so fully supports me like being a business owner. I went full-time and my own business this year, like investing in podcast equipment and doing that with me and really like believing in the business that I have laid in front of me. And then for Tanner, something that he has wanted to do since before we got married is travel and see more of the world. Like when we got engaged, he literally had an old RV that he wanted to like travel around in, but I'm like, that's not how we do things here, but we are like actively planning, making that be a reality next year. Like we're looking at the rig, we're looking at the roadmaps. And what does that plan look like? We're finding alternative schooling opportunities for, you know, what does that look like when we're on the road and how do we both still work? And what does that look like? And like, really, if this is a thing that's important to you, which I know it is like, how can we make this happen? Like how can we make the things that you are dreaming of our reality? And I think that that's like a really awesome place. Tanner: I'm not making eye contact I'm going to start crying. We didn't bring tissues! I got my hankey though. Melisa: Cause we've talked about autonomy and connection, and I hear you both being like, just wonderful, I mean teammates, but also like co-creators of this life where both your individual and, you know um, interests as a couple get to exist and flourish. And that's, it sounds like that's part of what's working and, And maybe it's some of what you've already said, but I have so many clients who are asking, like, what happens when NRE is gone? Like, what do we talk about? What about how do we do long-term relationships? And I've even had people in long-term relationships going. Yeah. We'd like, it just was awkward but when we went out on our date, like we had nothing to talk about. Like we don't, I know everything about them. So yeah, I mean, but it doesn't sound like either of you are in that space with one another. I hear like the genuine excitement and curiosity about one another's lives and what you want to build. Alison: Yeah, I think that is definitely there. And I think part of what brings that magic in is the like future focused conversations of like, what do we want to create on purpose? Like not just, how are we living our day to day lives and what do we have to manage this weekend? When do we need to schedule appointments? And all of the, like day-to-day maintenance that you kind of start defaulting into when you've been in a long-term relationship of like, just surviving together, especially after the past couple of years of COVID and like. Literally just surviving to get through and what that looks like, but what, what did we want our life to actually look like? Not just, what is it right now, but what can we create together in the future? And that's pretty freaking exciting. Tanner: Yeah. Yeah. Alison: So cute. It's making me happy. Keely: Is it, is it continuing that, that field, Melissa, of you finding love? Melisa: Well, I think I'm enjoying everyone else's love. Keely: If you are open to talking, I want to hear more, a little bit about the gender exploration and how that's been in the relationship or where that's at. Alison: Yeah. I'd love to hear more of it too. Tanner: I should have brought my Todrick Hall poster in where he's I don't remember what the outfit is, but you know, it's not his unicorn outfit. I don't know if you're familiar with Todrick hall. Alison: We'll have an introduction next. Tanner: Okay. I will help you out. I'll give you some links, show you some videos. He's a fabulous gay black man. Has it pop songs. He's done a visual albums on YouTube essentially. Like it's a musical more or less where it's just one song into the next throughout his entire album. So it's like music video after music video, but it's like a musical album done that a few times. Keely: I can't believe I haven't heard this person. I'm like obsessed with musicals. Yeah. Okay. Tanner: But just, I think. It's really just recently embracing that feminine side for myself. It's I kinda touch on the podcast when we talk about our story. Looking back right. There were signposts, to use your phrase of like, oh yeah, I guess I've not always been cis-het cisgendered right. And gender conforming you know and find the other. Same sex attractive from time that growing up, it's not necessarily something you talk about or we haven't had a whole lot experience with that in the Midwest kind of thing, but being able to explore that with someone I know and trust and love, it's been pretty liberating. And I think, yeah, to your point, right, we celebrate each other. And she's been nothing but supportive for me in exploring that side of myself. Alison: Yeah. It's like when Tanner told me, like, I'm, don't always feel masculine or like, like a man it wasn't, it was like, oh, that, that tracks and I mean, I've known him since. He was 17 years old. So like there's a lot of growth that happens from then to where we are now in our, you know, late thirties, early forties, and all of the changes that go through that. And seeing you like having the confidence to embrace that side of you. It has been really awesome for me to witness and like, I'm like, he's fucking, bad-ass like owning these parts of your identity that I like I'm so honored that I get to witness. And I feel like I, because it's not like. Necessarily something that you're doing a ton in public even. No, yeah, like, so I'm like one of the rare people that like gets to see some of this part of his life. So like, it's, it's pretty amazing to watch him explore. And also, like, I know that it's still a beginning too, because you haven't like done a super deep dive on like, Figuring out what all this means is kind of just like we'll, we're gonna ride the flow as it comes up and see where it goes. And I'm just like here for the ride. Keely: Cool. Yay. That's I mean, for that support, because we don't always see that, like even within non-monogamous queer couples, when then gender comes up or someone is identifying differently than when they first got together. And. There are so many situations where partners aren't as supportive. And just even within the community, there's like differing supports depending on who you're interacting with and where you're at. So like it's so to hear this, Tanner: sorry, I didn't mean to speak over you there. Absolutely. Fully acknowledge how fortunate I am to have her next to me. To be able to go through this cause yeah, those are completely valid responses too. Right? Like you don't have to be supportive if your partner, all of a sudden becomes a different gender in their mind and in your eyes right now, it's not something that I think is required of folks. Keely: Yeah, they just wouldn't be able to stay together. Alison: But yeah, like I think it's. It's been kind of validating for me to have a partner who's like experiencing these things and like, oh yeah, no, I'm definitely at least by if not pan or queer, like, cause I love this person. Like that's what it is for me. Like. Tanner is my person. Yeah. At least one of my people and well, like been , my, my main person for a long fucking time. And like so much of my life, I have been able to share with him and I want to make sure that that is something that we can continue on. In whatever way, shape or form that looks like, like we love each other. We want to stay committed to each other, but like, we're also I don't know if either of, you know, Tim Minchin but he's like, I think Australian comedian, music artist but we went and saw him in concert when we lived in DC, like 10 years ago. And he has a song of like if I never met you, like. Probably somebody else would do just fine as my partner. Like somebody else would probably do, you know, like there's no one person on the planet for the other, you know? And like, it's just like, it's a really fun, like ton of tongue in cheek, like love song, like anti love song. And I feel like that's true. Like, I love you and I do want to be your partner, but also like if something didn't work out between us. That's going to be okay too. Like we have the, I think it would be shocking if we weren't friends for the rest of our lives. But like if something happened and we decided that we weren't, Tanner: if it wasn't working out anymore, let's not pursue it. Let's not try and stay attached to what it looks like. Right. I mean, yeah, I'm more committed to. Yeah, our partnership, whether it's marriage or what it looks like, right. That we would continue to be partners. The, I couldn't imagine maybe a traumatic brain injury would change our personalities or something, but I don't think there's any reason we wouldn't stay friends, partners in some respect. Right. Certainly parents right now, you know, more than, or at the very least, I suppose. Keely: Yeah. It sounds like what I'm hearing is really that, that. The thing that many couples have challenges with is the two of you have maintained growth within these years of being together many years, being together, you don't have that stagnant, like married couple that then kind of just like does their own thing. And, and doesn't really. Change much and is unhappy. And you know, you don't emulate any of that and you have this growth, like you have you support each other, like, is, is that the main thing is like finding someone that you can grow with and change. Absolutely Tanner: Melissa Melissa was saying, right. It's you know, I already know everything about it. Like I offered that you don't, you don't know everything about them. Yeah. Keely: Like how could you possibly, especially Melisa: when, as you're both saying, like you're still unpacking and learning things Alison: about yourself. Yes, absolutely. I think like, We are both just innately, curious people. And we're always going to be following our curiosity, whether that's about ourselves or something else. And that's fascinating. Like that's, that's what I think keeps us coming back to each other too, is like, oh, I learned this thing and we don't have the exact same interests. So like, Tanner's way more into like tech and the internet and how those things work. And I'm more into like creative stuff and how the brain works and physical sciences and stuff like that. And like we can share those interests and be like, I'm learning new things that I want to share with you. And like, that's, it's a pretty fun partnership. Melisa: , I want to know their queer joy. I want to go to I'm so happy now after this interview. I just want to have more, more joy, Keely: Alison. Yeah. Before we go to queer joy, do I, do you, can you just let listeners know how they can find you and then Tanner, if there's things that you, you know, the listeners can find you as well, but let them know your, your info or any upcoming things that you want to share with our audience. Alison: Yeah. So our podcast is, Hey Babe I'm Queer. You can find it on basically any podcasting app, new episodes come out every week. And if you are a later in life queer or bisexual, and you want some relationship coaching or even help crafting your coming out conversation to your partner that is what I help people do. So you can find me. On all social media, Um, at Alison Jamison coaching or my website. It's just Alison jamison.com and it's awesome work. Like I love helping people like feel safe enough to come out to their partners and show them that, like, it doesn't mean that your relationship has to end and that it is the beginning of a series of conversations to make your relationship what you want it to be. Weather it happens to be like with that same partner or if it means a like decoupling and finding your next love. Keely: Cool. Tanner: So you can find me on the podcast. Hey babe, I'm queer. I'm not really out really much anywhere else. Even yet it's so new to me for me rather not new to me, but it's new for me coming out later in life. Mostly it's just helping producing edit the kind of jealous Alison: Be an active co-host of the podcast, Tanner: So jealous you folks have editor and producer. Keely: Well, so yeah, as well. So saying we like to end the episode with queer joy of the week and whatever that means for you. So we have everyone share what their queer joy is. Tanner: I admit I did some homework today. I came prepared with props, my queer joy this week. Honestly, it was sharing with our kiddo that I don't always feel like a boy and I can't do it. Um, It came from we're reading this book Sex is a funny word. And it's a great book for those that don't know. Right. Maybe you can include a link It's a fantastic book very open very inclusive. And it has conversations about well, gender queer folks are right along there with, you know, the boys and girls in the stories. And it talks about that right away. And. We were just reading it with with them. And I just, you know, want to make sure it's like, how is it meaningful to them as were parents just reading them this story and this, because we are so heteronormative presenting, I want to make sure to express for them, like, Hey, so, you know I don't always feel like a. boy Sometimes I feel like a woman. And they got it on the way to school the next day. We were, I look at teary eyes and I'm starting to lose it. We I can't remember who brought it up me or them, but definitely echoed the same thing back to me. Right. Like, yeah. You know, I don't either, I don't always feel the same. So that was definitely joyous for me as a, as a parent. Keely: Oh, Alison: you got me teary now! Seriously. I'm like, Ooh, I dunno if I can do this. Mine's like, so cheesy now that's like, so the listen for listeners, you can't see, I think all of us Tanner: after her. Alison: Well, mine's super cheesy, but it's that it's really reflects us as well too. I think as a couple. My queer joy right now is the holiday movie complex embracing more queer stories and our Christmas movies as much as I am not religious anymore. I still love a good holiday movie. And Netflix has one, I think, jingle all the way or something like that. That's coming out, there's a couple of Hallmark movies that focus on like lesbian romance. And I am just here for it. In watching some gay holiday romance stories. For sure! Keely: Yes. Melisa, what's your queer I'm I'm so racking my brain right now. Cause I've been kind of out of it and sick , I gotta think of it. Do you have one? Do you have one? Yeah, I do. Melisa: I, I had an awesome start to my weekend. I got to go speak at George Fox university to the counseling students there who are just finishing up their education and going to be sitting with clients in a few months. And I got to do a whole presentation on non-monogamy and open relationship styles. And it was, I just was such an honor. I mean, also this is a Christian university, so it was a very big deal for them to ask me to come in and coach their students on this. And what, you know, I planned about a 45 minute presentation. Kind of really anticipating, not a lot of feedback and that, and it was their last day of the class. Like they're all tired, you know, but my gosh, these students were incredible and they asked so many wonderful questions. And they were so receptive and just curious, and it was genuine. It made the presentation go like an hour and a half. I'm like, well, gosh, I can't, I can leave, you know, But I was really, really moved by the receptivity. And so grateful for that opportunity to have that platform to really, you know um, similar to how you were talking about the podcast and giving people models that you didn't have. I didn't have any classes on non-monogamy when I was learning to become a therapist at all. So to be able to offer that to, to, you know, this whole group of people was amazing for me. I was buzzing for like three hours after the presentation. Tanner: That's amazing. Fantastic. Melisa: Yeah. So fun. Keely: Yay. Well, my, I have a really simple queer joy for the week and I think that's okay. Very, just brief way to end it, which is I've just really enjoyed planning, our little gathering at Connective Therapy Collective, we're doing a gathering for us, a winter gathering after solstice, and I have enjoyed so much planning it. Um, Which includes inspired from sex education, the show sex education vulva cupcakes I'm very excited. and it's a queer owned bakery and it's just, it's great. So that's been just a fun and I really like sweets. So I think that's it too. Especially during the holidays, it's like thinking about sweets makes me feel happy so well, well thanks! It's been so wonderful speaking to you, Alison and Tanner. Thank you for joining us today. And everyone thank you for listening and you know how to get ahold of us through Connective Therapy, Collective on Instagram or Facebook, all the things, and hope that you all have a joyful queer week. Thanks for listening to queer relationships, queer joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant with audio edited and produced by me. Cardinal marking. Intro music is by bad snacks. This week's guests were Alison and Tanner Jamison. Fine. Alison Tanner and their podcast. Hey babe. I'm queer@alisonjamison.com. That's A L I S O N J A M I S O n.com. Or, you know, you can click the link in the show notes. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy, Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our website at www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love you. Bye.