What is a relationship agreement? What things do you need to agree upon? Why are relationship agreements important for both monogamous and non-monogamous partners, no matter how long you’ve been together? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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Keely: Now labels are helpful sometimes, obviously it is helpful for me to hear someone's monogamous or non-monogamous, but even that label can mean so many different things. Okay. Melisa: The label in and of itself is an agreement. But let's agree to what that title means. Keely: Hello everyone. Oh, we are here. Queer relationships. Queer joy. Hi, Melissa. What's going on? Melisa: Hello!, I'm happy to be back after a very social weekend for me.. So that's Yeah, we were well, so I was meeting a friend who was a previous metamor now just friends Talking about nonmonogamy and dating, and one of the difficulties of. Like wanting to find partnership, but sort of finding like weird energy on the dating apps with people who seem to be seeking partnership, like a little, like kind of like predator, not predatory, but they're hunting, they're hunting for someone to like build a life with in a way that's kind of uncomfort. Keely: This person queer, hetero, or Melisa: Queer but in an established pretty much hierarchical non-monogamous situation. Not really looking to settle down in the way that it seems, the people we are coming into contact with. We're looking at. Keely: Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I think that really sets up. Today's talk about non-monogamy but maybe we also talk about dating a little bit. I think that's real. And the dating apps. Oh my goodness. This weekend, the dating apps exploded. Exploded. Melisa: Yeah. Yep. It's happening. Spring's happening. Keely: I call it. We'll see, I'm calling it the uh, masks off, pants off. Melisa: I mean, you predicted this Keely, just go back a couple episodes. Keely: I T if I don't look at the data for a day and then I go on it, I'm like, where did you come from? Because two months ago it would be silent crickets. And now it's like, I mean, and like, yeah, I'm a cool person, but this is how do you keep up? Melisa: Let's go. You're getting the same person coming back around on the card deck and you're going, I swipe left like three times. Maybe, maybe now it's letting me have this app for the last however many months. Keely: Oh my gosh. Okay. We should introduce ourselves. And we're talking about non-monogamy today and prepping for a workshop. I am Keeley C Helmick owner Connective Therapy, Collective. I am queer non-binary fam white able-bodied non-monogamously dating. A solo and that's it for now. Melissa? Melisa: And I'm Melissa DeSegiurant, I'm a marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor at Connective Therapy, Collective I'm, white, bisexual polyamorous, gender fluid non monogamously dating as well. Keely: Awesome. So, yeah, so this nonmonogamy thing and that kind of dating. I think it's interesting. Relationship agreements as well. Like I've been thinking a lot about relationship agreements that commonly is placed as a non-monogamous or polyamorous thing that monogamous folks don't sit down and do this, or don't talk about it. And I'm really curious, and I'm really encouraging my clients and. Friends and the community, anyone who talks about relation the relationship, Hey, do you have relationship agreements, right? You talk about your, the relationship agreement being a living document that is looked at and consistently talked about and reviewed. Melisa: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The clients that I've had and have currently who are in monogamous structures, perhaps always have been. When I say relationship agreement, they kind of like, look at me confused. Keely: Like, what is, well, how do you know? Like what each of you, what is your expectations? They're like, well, don't have sex with anybody else. I'm like, okay, but how you define sex? Don't cheat on me. And I'm like, well, what is cheating? What do you mean. And they'll talk about things like emotional cheating. They'll talk about certain texts. Yeah. All of these things. Melisa: Talk about fantasies. Are you a lot of fantasize Keely: about someone else? Are you allowed to watch porn? Yeah. Melisa: There's so many. Yeah. Keely: What people consider porn cheating? Some people, obviously not a lot. Not everyone thinks that, but there are people that think that. Yeah. Yeah. Melisa: Yeah. So what are these agreements like? And that's my, I think the issue is if these things aren't talked about, then we're just assuming we all know how we want to be in relationship together. Keely: Yeah. And so part of when we talk about queering things up, and Gina and Rae did such a wonderful job talking about this last episode. They said, when we asked them what's working well, is that they both of them at one point or the other said, well, as being in queer relationship, being a queer person, we are co-creating our relationship dynamic. We aren't relying on CIS heteronormativity, CIS hetero monogamous normativity. And so when we're thinking about queering up relationships and we're thinking about relationship agreements, how do we speak to partners? And speaking of dating, how do we even clarify for ourselves? What we want in a relationship, how do we communicate that? How do we communicate that in step of like dating and not talking about the relationship escalator. We're just talking about. The fluidity of change that happens as we maybe hang out with somebody more or share more emotionally begin to have sex. I mean, this also ties back into consent, informed consent, not making assumptions. Melisa: What you said about the relationship escalator? Actually, it makes me think that I'm thinking back on, even when I was acting in a monogamous way, again, I think I'm a polyamorous person, whether or not I'm in a monogamous structure. So I was acting very monogamous. So there's that. Perhaps other people are sort of in this camp where they start out dating, doing a decent job, having these conversations, right. Asking things, it's just common to ask things like, what are you looking for? Here's what I want. But the problem with the relationship escalator is then we slap on a title like, Ooh, we're boyfriend and we're, you know, whatever it is, all of a sudden the conversation goes out the window. And it's like, now that we have this title and this notch on that relationship escalator, we all know what that means. Keely: So with that label, this is the piece of the assumptions is once there is a label that, oh, I know what to expect from you. And you know what to expect from me, cause you're my partner now, or you're my girlfriend or you're my boyfriend or your my.... There's other words, you're my boo, you know, there's all these labels that then come with these assumptions. Now labels are helpful sometimes, obviously it is helpful for me to hear someone's monogamous or non-monogamous, but even that label can mean so many different things. Okay. Melisa: The label and itself in and of itself. is an agreement. If we're agreeing to be this label, whatever it is, what does that mean? What are we agreed? Actually let's not just agree to a title, but let's agree to what that title means. Keely: Yeah, I mean, even to the point of like expectations around texting, so like, God, man, if we get really get into relationship dynamics, you know, there's this piece of Gottman. We can get the good stuff and throw away the rest when we, that connection of greeting and saying goodbye. And in technology now the greeting and saying goodbye. What I noticed is like expectations around texting good morning and texting good night. So it's not necessarily about, you know, a lot of the Gottman is really based on people living together and being married, you know, it's very CIS heteronormative monogamous, but those same cons again, we can queer them up. And I think that recognizing this point of connection that many people want, we have to navigate that as a couple or navigate that as a new partner, not to understand what's really going to help the relationship be healthy and feel good. Melisa: Part of what we can bring into new relationships is our own self knowledge based on our past relationships. Like if something didn't work for me in a past relationship, I might want to surface that is like, Hey, I, when I'm in relationship with somebody like this, here's an agreement that I really feel comfortable with. How does that feel for you? Texting, for example, like, you know, I noticed my last relationship, I really would get aggravated and feel unheard when somebody was looking at their phone and texting. It's a thing for me. How do you feel about that? Like, is that an agreement you're comfortable with and just surface it, Keely: say I'm not even, I'm not going to touch it right now. I'm not going to touch it. Melisa: I notice also how I offered it. Like, Hey, this is something I'm interested in. How does that feel for you? Because I think what happened. And I'm talking now about like what you're bringing in from past relationships. What I see more often in the therapy space is there's been a conflict. There's been, you know, frustration and that's what the agreement comes out of. And then the way it's presented is different than what I just modeled. It's more like, Hey, this isn't working for me. Let's make this agreement. And that sounds controlling. It sounds Keely: controlling. Totally or the phrases like, well, that's just how it is. That's how it's supposed to be. Like when someone talks about texting, I mean, I get the conversation around like sitting on the couch and engaging in television. Is engaging, watching a television show connection? And if we term it as connection within our relationship dynamic, is there the expectation that you're not in your phone? Mm, what is actual connected time? So, yeah, that is a really good concrete example of something to be brought up. And there's so many different things. So we have a PDF on the website that is the anarchy, what does it smorgasbord worksheet? There's also. That wasn't written too long ago in 2016 relationship agreements. Have you read that book, Melissa? So I skimmed it. We do have it as CDC. Melisa: We have a lot of books. We got, we got a long list. Keely: I know some we have read some, we have not. The relationship agreement book when I skimmed, it seemed pretty good. And I have high recommendations from folks who have read it. And so the relationship agreements is something that two people, or more than two people could look at. And one of the things is that when I read it, it's not focused on just non-monogamy. I know there's some really great, helpful ways to have these discussions that's in like more than two and some of the more specific nonmonogamous workbooks or not workbooks books, whatever. So this book in particular could be really helpful for both non-monogamous and monogamous folks. And so I think that's what we're really getting at is what can monogamous folks take away from non-monogamy in the same way that we talk about with consent? There's so much structure when BDSM and kink is done in an ethical way. There is so much lovely communication and really clear, informed consent that happens in those arenas, that quote unquote, vanilla or more. Standard interactions can really benefit from learning from that. And I think, again, this broadening of queering things up, we're talking about queering up sex, because a lot of cis hetero folks can learn soooooo much from us queers.. Oh yes they can! Queering up monogamy taking from non-monogamous. And looking at informed consent and all relationship dynamics, learning from the work that the BDSM community has done. Melisa: Yeah. Well, and you've, you've highlighted communication. We talk about it all the time, all the time on this podcast and that's, that is how we get consent to look outside the mold, you know, get out of there's one way to do a relationship it's that I know based on what I've watched in some movies or seen in the relationships around me, you know, I think that the the phrase maybe that Gina used was like, we're a custom build, you know, and to do that, we need to communicate. Keely: Yeah, we really do. Melisa: I'm thinking the other thing. And we've talked about this concept before, but especially for monogamous folks who are still kind of going, what do I need agreements about? You know, we gave, we gave the phone example. I would resurface the conversation about time with friends versus time together. Keely: Yes. Yes. I've Melisa: even been thinking like, how cool would it have been when I was in a monogamous relationship? We actually scheduled our time together, not just date night, right. Not just the big, like, Hey, let's once a month go out and do something. That's great. Absolutely. But I'm talking not assuming Monday night, Tuesday night, Thursday, not assuming every night that I don't have plans with someone else. That means I have plans with my partner by default And that was intentional. Keely: Yeah. And so, so when I hear you say that, Melisa, it's like, what does downtime look like? Because. Some folks. And I think this is not to put too many categories, but maybe more introverted folks introverted spectrum will say that that quality time is hanging out in the same room with somebody, but doing separate things. And then there's other folks, not just extroverts, but tend to be more extroverts are like, no, I want that like connection and time together is interacting. And so when you start dating and then when you get past the like casual dating or like spend more time in a house together or in an apartment or in a bar, you know, where there's this downtime, what does your downtime look like? What do you want your downtime to look like? Not just, like you said, not just filling in when you're hanging out with friends or yeah, this first couple months or so when it's like lots of sex and chilling out. It, it changes and it, and it may be an opportunity to further decide whether someone's compatible with you or not before you're so emotionally invested, especially. I mean, that's the hardest thing about monogamous folks in dating is really, if a person is looking to have. Partner and partner up in that, moving together, building a life together. It's really challenging to understand fully what to even talk about, to help recognize what is compatible. Yeah, totally, Melisa: totally. And because some of it, at least I'll speak for myself in my experience. Some of it is. Logistical, like do we have the same values. Do we like to go to sleep at the same time? And again, you know, coming from being in a very long relationship, I like, I, I have my eyes on certain things that I know have come up before, you know, in that kind of logistical compatibility, but then we're also trying to figure out the emotional connective piece, you know, and the chemistry and all that. And so I think that's where people can maybe get tripped up is how do I talk about all this stuff? And still keep the mood going. Like, how do I, how do I balance both of those things and not get so in my head that I'm not actually present physically with the person or energetically with the person, because I'm going through my checklist of what I need. Keely: Moving forward, you know, we were kind of, we started this conversation with talking about dating that beginning stage of just meeting somebody to get to know them. And it really makes me think about how one of the reasons I, how I got into therapy and actually started working with couples was because I started out working with teenagers and I realized that so many struggles and challenges that teenagers have is actually from a family perspective. And where is the prevention like I want, I'm all about like, how can we have this work better from the get-go? And so you go back to the parents and you go back to the preconception. And that's where I got to work with couples because I wanted to see families and communities. Working together. Melisa: You went back to the root. Keely: Yeah. And so when we're talking about relationships, I mean, really we're going back to the root, which is dating to me. That's what I, that's where my mind goes. And we're talking about all this. And so we're not just going to talk about dating, but I think this is really ramping up. Like how do we, if we're talking about relationship agreements, Okay. We've got these formats. We have this book, we have this template on the website, but let's scale back. And like, how do we start these conversations in the dating atmosphere? And I really, really, really encourage folks. I really do anyone that's listening and is in the dating right now. Even if you are a monogamous person, I really encourage, if you can try out dating non-monogamously. And maybe dating non-monogamous to you means you are. That doesn't mean you're having sex with a bunch of different people are making out with a bunch of it's for people, but just noticing what is it like to interact with humans and have these similar conversations and come from a perspective, that's not a scarcity model. Like, oh, I connect with this person. I'm going to hang on to them. Melisa: Connection. I have to go with it. Yeah. Yeah. It could look like for a monogamous person. And I know plenty of monogamous people who do this. You're going on first dates with a few different folks. You've got, you've got a date on Saturday and then you've got a second date, maybe the next week with one of them. And then you've got another first date the next week. And you communicate like I'm looking for a monogamous relationship and partnership, but right now I'm sort of dating openly to figure out what I'm looking for. Keely: And there you have the beginnings. And Melissa, you just said the essence of the very beginning of informed consent. Wow, those conversations, people ask, how do we have these conversations? That what you just said, Hey, I am just casually hanging out, dating multiple people. Melisa: And you could do this if you're non-monogamous too, maybe we're more practiced at that. I have not experienced when I went on my first date where I was like, okay, we're I had to kind of time it for myself to feel when it was right. I had this information on my profile, so it wasn't like it was something brand new, but I wanted to mention, obviously my partner, I have a long-term partner in California. You know, and so I named that and I said, yeah, I've got this partner in California. I kind of gave a couple, I guess, notes about like what our communication looks like, just to kind of paint the picture of what that relationship is like for me. And then just communicated. Yeah. Here's what I'm looking for. And same, you know, I got the response back while I'm potentially looking for either something monogamous. Maybe non-monogamous looking for partner. Moving at a slow pace. Fantastic. That's all we needed for a first date. I don't need to go through the list stuff like, so how do you use your phone? When we watch me, you know, you, you pace yourself as you are dating and meeting people. Keely: Yeah, we don't want to go for that lesbian stereotype. There's a great skit. I wish I could find it from Saturday night live and it's there on speed dating. And like these stereotypical lesbians are telling their whole life story and moving in together after the first day. Yeah. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. I mean, it's obviously a exaggeration, but yeah, I think you're right. Starting off with this, like telling people, certain things, but we don't tell them everything. I mean, those of us out there, like me who are dating and have children and let's face it. I'm 41. I have some baggage for better, for worse. I have some great life experience. I'm in a sweet place in life, but dang, do I have some baggage. When I tell it negotiate when to tell people about that. Yeah. I make it pretty casual. They'll like be asking what, you know, what you have going on this weekend or something the other, and I'll be like, oh yeah, I don't have my kids.] So I'm going to go out on a day trip. Or I'll be like, oh, I have my kids. I'm going to do this. Um, I mean, I, I will say I'm very grateful for the folks that the dating app, when they say no kids, I'm like sweet. Yes. Also don't post pictures of myself with my kids on the dating app. Melisa: Seeing, like you're saying, everyone has to go through that process for themselves. For a while. I have that. I was divorced on my dating app on my profile. And I took it off and I don't have a judgment about anyone who has that on, but for me it felt strange for me that I had to keep posting. I felt like I had to post it. And then that felt weird. It's like, why, why, why does that, I guess it felt like it was shame interlaced with shame for me to have it on there. And I'm like, no, that's not cool, but like, I'll post that I'm non-monogamous cause that's literally my relationship structure, but you don't really know my whole history. I'll tell you that if I connect with you. Keely: Yes. Like maybe yeah. If you don't connect with them, maybe you don't share certain things or. Melisa: I don't need to tell everyone about my whole experience and my last year, if like, there's just not a vibe, you know? But to your point, then you got to figure out, when are you going to drop it? I dropped it. Maybe 20 minutes in and I didn't, it was the way it came up was just, I'm very, if you haven't noticed, I used a lot of humor anyway, so it worked well for me, but essentially the conversation had gone to pandemic and like, of course that's a lot of conversations around like, how has your life changed? Right. And so I got some feedback from the person I was on a date with. What's going on for them and they turned it to me, and I'm like, well, I got divorced at the end of 2020. And it was so comical because they almost did a spit take. It just was like, it was a lot of information to take in very quickly. And I'm like, yeah, it was ten-year relationship. And then we made a joke of it and I'm like, ha ha let you get a couple drinks in or a couple sips in before I dropped that on you. And we went with it and it was totally of. You know, and th th the spit take wasn't a judgment against me or anything having to do with the fact that I was in a, in a prior relationship. It was just that, you know, dropping something big, like that, it's a natural response to like, whoa, didn't see that coming, you know? Yeah, for sure. I'm worried about those responses though. That's why I give that example because we get so worried that if someone, you know, has any response to what we're sharing, we have to take that. Yeah, Keely: that's just it. I mean, aren't we going into like the dynamics of ourselves? Like, if you're worried, if you are monitoring, how you talk about something based on someone else or based then on yourself. Like I know when I was on dating apps, I don't know, five, six years ago when I first went on dating apps and my kids were much younger, obviously. And I was really concerned about how people react to me having kids. And so I over-thought it way too much. And now, like I said, I just let it come up in casual conversation. And I think the difference of like, when we talk about things and how we identify, whether we want to get an expert in still, but on the dating app is like, is it part of our identity or is it part of like my kids are a part of me, but I can date somebody non-monogamous and they would never meet my kids. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to, my kids are an age and the way that my co-parenting stuff works is that someone who's more non-monogamous can definitely, or someone who's just more independent and navigate this situation. You know, my life situation with me, they won't ever have to meet my kids, but then, you know, there was a time where someone would meet my kids. But that's where I, you know, if you're trying to figure out how to talk about something, The other piece that you said Melissa was, I was really thinking about is, you know, going back to when we're going on these dates, when we're on these dating apps, going back to this idea of like, noticing how it makes us feel coming back from mindfulness and taking note, I mean mand maybe this sounds of really dorky. Have a fucking journal and take notes. What did you notice? And, you know, I will say I'm also, I think I've said this before, but maybe not like I'm in this, full-blown like, I'm a relationship coach. I have my regular therapist and I'm on dating apps and getting like advice from different coaches and dating experts and all that, and like really paying attention. The really awesome thing about going on different dates with different people is you get to see how your interacting with different people. It's not about them. It's about us individually, how we're interacting, how are we talking about things? How are we communicating? And really, I mean, I know everyone knows this and it's so cliche, but the more authentic we can be. The more, we're really going to attract those folks that are a good match for us. It's when we're trying, we meet somebody or we think someone seems really cool, or we try to navigate the way that we talk about ourselves, the information we give, we try to appear a certain way so that the person likes us just showing up as ourselves authentic. Yeah, because that Melisa: whatever game we play, I was talking to my friend about this, this weekend to this dating game of like, okay, now I have to wait this long before I message. And then I say all of these little, I can't do it. I can't do any of it. And th that, that none of us can, we can't sustain that for the length of any longer to our relationship. And that's what happens. It's like all this stuff comes down and now all of a sudden we're being authentic when we weren't for the past, however many months playing this game, you know? And it's. Yeah. And gosh, going back to the agreements, how do you have conversations about agreements? If you're not even showing up authentically? Like that's you, you, you can't, you have to have a foundation for that communication. And like you said, Keely, it starts way back at the very beginning. How am I feeling with this person on this first date potentially second date, whatever it is. And with that, how am I feeling, how comfortable is it for me to be vulnerable? How comfortable is it for me to name what I'm looking for? Keely: Yeah, and the wording and it makes me an even going back farther. So in both the date atmosphere, I just have to plug this person. I listened to this person. It's very, I don't know how people feel about this. It's very like law of attraction, but this person on TikTok goes by Bryce the third, and I have listened to this at least 30 times this weekend, because it's all about releasing relationships that aren't working for. You, relationships that aren't working for you, then you are able to attract those which are meant to be. And I think about this from a dating perspective of how important it is to be able to communicate. If you don't feel the vibe with somebody to not. Hang on to any kind of relationship, whether it's like a second date or as you're navigating, creating room for relationships and on a dating app, how do you release other relationships that aren't working for you so that you have that energy. And I just couldn't, I couldn't let us finish up the episode without saying that, because I know it seems really basic, probably especially those of you listeners that are like very well versed in law of attraction. But I think we talk so much about, are we emotionally available or should we be dating, you know, and we're talking about strategies for date. We gotta like, look at ourselves and let go in the process of having room to be open to these new relationships. We also have to like clean away, you know, it's kind of spring cleaning time, spring relationships, spring cleaning, Melisa: Burn all that extra stuff you don't want. That's not working for you. Keely: Yeah. So on that note, we're going to continue talking about date. For sure. I mean, we're both still dating. Melisa: I'm like active and dating, like a new person. Yeah. Keely: So I do want a plug. So we're going to keep talking about non-monogamy we're gonna be talking about dating. We have some great interviews coming up and just so rad. We've got our workshop coming up. Yes. Our workshop Thursday, March 24. You can find out on eventbrite, or you can find it on our website and we have the non-monogamy group and we're also doing, non-monogamy drop in group soon. So there's a lot of focus we're really wanting to be here as support. We still offer all of our things at CTC. They're really with all this new dating stuff, this opportunity to support non-monogamous folks. So I feel like a burning desire for you to be the one to start off the queer joy. Melisa: Just cause I'm smiling so big. Like you have it already. I feel like I need to think for a minute. I say it. I am. I had a very social weekend. I think I started with my queer joy as we do sometimes. I went on a second date with this person. It went super well. I'm now at that dating point where I'm like, okay, slow down. Don't let your mind go too fast because there's a lot of chemistry and it's also been one week. Keely: And for Melisa: I'm a slow moving person, I was with my ex for six years before we got married. So, you know and I'm super excited. And also you got to catch up with two different friends over the weekend, and it was gosh, for any of you who are super introverted, like myself and have been very quarantined away for a very long time, even though like, for me, sometimes even when I want to hang out with my friends, it just sounds like a lot, like, like I'm like, oh, I'm going to lose like half of my day, you know? I don't know. It's just, that's what goes on in my head. And having like little tiny Hangouts, like, Hey, I have some errands to run. Like I had to go to the pet store to get food for my cats. And I have another friend who has cats and was like, yeah, I need pet food too. So we like went on a little, probably spent an hour and a half, two hours together doing errands and then went about our day. So it was great. It was just nice to be active and social with multiple people again, but also. In these tiny increments in ways that didn't totally drain me either. Like I'm here, we're recording on a Monday morning and I'm like, yeah, I did feel like I had rest this weekend, even though I saw a bunch of people. Keely: Yay. Well, I, yeah, I'm in the thick of the dating thing. Non-monogamous really enjoying having this dynamic of like some folks I hang out with. No, not sexual with right now, but kind of seeing whether I want to go there and not being slower about that. Maybe normally am, but also having sexual partners and. Like exploring all of us. It's been really nice to have that dynamic. And I did like have some stuff by earlier in the week for like a quickie, which is fun in the middle of the day. Melisa: And Keely: let me tell you, like, I love it. This person, like I've never do the mom before and they're so sweet. Cause they're like, oh. What are your kids getting home? And I realized, I was like, oh crap. I need to make sure my high schooler isn't around! Cause I know I pick up my younger one, but my eyes were I'm like, oh shit. And I called them like, so I had to like trap it's like this whole prepping, prepping quickie. And I asked them to mention queer quickie for those folks who are listening, who maybe, and gay versus hetero folks that are hanging out, talking to us or learning from us too. Quickie is like over an hour. It's not a quickie and queer. It's good that you clarified. But my, what I'm using now, you know, do we have our little bouts and like, you know, back alleys or, you know, restroom. Sure. You know, but a quickie. In cars and garages. Oh, but let me tell you, I've got those parked cars. I've spent Melisa: many, I've been like a regular at a spot, like Keely: on the Melisa: third floor, this parking garage in Berkeley that. Fond fond memories, Keely: PDX, PDX, parking lot, for sure. So that was fine. And then I, yeah, I, and then I had a dinner thing is it's funny, you mentioned the cars on Friday. I had a good old make-out session. We didn't have sex or we didn't have, I say we didn't have penetrative sex, but we did some nice, like making out and groping and that felt really good. You know, it was fun to just have that happen to. So there is just so I'd say yeah, my queer joy and is just as variation of different connections and different ways of being with different humans and navigating that. So to be continued. So. Yeah, when this drops we'll just have another week or so before or four workshops. I'm super excited about it. And thanks again, Melissa. Great conversation. And thanks y'all for listening. I hope you all have a queer joyful week. Thanks for listening to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. A podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant. With the audio edited and produced by me, Cardinal Marking. Intro music is by Bad Snacks. Outro music by Victoria Instrumental. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify. Yes, you can review on Spotify now. Or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy Collective dot com. For information on our workshops and for more queer joy, visit our website at Connective Therapy Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye