How do we make sure sex workers are treated fairly? What do you do if you disagree with your partner about watching porn? How do you work through shame around porn usage?
Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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Connective Therapy Collective website: www.connectivetherapycollective.com
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TRANSCRIPT
Keely: Cause we're talking about capitalism. We're talking about consent. We're talking about patriarchy. We're talking about white supremacy. All of these pieces play into sex work and pornography, because that is how you start differentiating whether it's ethical or not. And the word ethical really, like you said, is it's about intention and it's about sitting down and really being conscientious about how you make a decision, right. Because there's not an absolutely right or wrong. Keely: Hello everyone. Welcome to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. We're back. And we have lots of talk about. Melissa. I, I didn't say anything to you. We've not talked no updates because I was like saving it. I feel, you know, I talk a lot with this podcast and I don't care we're Having Gay Sex and one of the things I've heard them say recently is they don't talk to each other because they want to like save it. You know, Melisa: Saving that juicy conversation for the episode Keely: Is that a myth. Is that like how we talk about saving orgasms for like our partners or something? I'm Melisa: not of that camp. I don't save any of those. I got plenty to spare Keely: maybe. Should I be, do I need to wait? So I need to save them or do I just have a plethora of stories? Just like so many orgasms to give or reasons or experience? I don't know. Well, our topic today made me think about it was actually pertinent because I have. A pornography talk with one of my people that I'm dating. I almost said, partner, I don't think I can label any of them partners. I'm not going to use that word, but I did spontaneously have a pornography discussion with one of them. Cool. Yeah. And it was just, it was pretty short and it was. Do you watch pornography, which we both just assumed both of us had at some point seen pornography Melisa: Well that's I going to ask if like, how do they even start? So it started with the question that the, do you watch? Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is a long distance person. So let, there is a lot of video time involved. And even when we're having sex together, it's with ourselves visually together. So I think that makes it almost easier to have the discussion because that's actually the only person I've had the discussion with out of the three folks that are in my rotation right now to Melisa: Yeah like is it a taboo topic to talk about porn? Yes. Yes. And if so, we're tackling it anyway. Keely: It really brought up a lot of things from my childhood because, and I don't know how much I want to talk about this, but I think it's helpful. I think people enjoy hearing little bits and pieces. And if you don't want to hear this, you know, fast forward, like five minutes, cause Melisa and I can talk about our own experiences and then we'll go into like dialogue land of, of technical counseling theory. What I noticed happening was. A lot of messaging that I had heard growing up and we were in such a different I'm a 1980s baby so pornography on the internet was just picking up. So my experience was really based on like Playboys and magazines and strip clubs. That was like the big thing in my household was my mom giving me way too much information about the things that my dad did. And so it was like very shamed. It was very, very shamed. And so when I started learning about things like sneaking magazines, it felt so like, quote, unquote dirty, or just like this isn't something you're supposed to do. And then I will say throughout dating, many different folks, you know, gender wise, sexuality wise, it is interesting, the different views and noticing that. What do you notice? What, what, what's your take on, or what's your personal experience so far with all this? Gosh, as Melisa: you were saying that Keely, I was thinking about how valuable it is for, for people to look back to what was your first experience with porn or exposure to? My mind actually went to, I can recall, like my first like visual porn, it was prom night. Yeah. Rough. Yeah, it was, that was a lot. It's nothing that's sexually turned me on. There were stilettos in places that I didn't need to see that Keely: So wait, so you saw porn-. Wait, so your porn experience-, Melisa: It was the after party of prom night, my junior year, I was not sexually active at this time. And they had you know, porn on in the background because that's a great idea. Oh Lord. But yeah, thinking about your first times for me, actually, where my mind also went was like erotica. Cause that for me earlier and. Uh, I experienced pleasure, not just shock. Keely: So you mean in the form of like words, so are you you're clarifying like erotica, like words. Okay. Oh, I used to do that. I mean, I would read those romance novels. There is Melisa: a series. I can't find that. I like, how am I, God, I have searched my parents' house high and low. I can't find it on the internet. I spent a lot of hours to not Keely: VC Andrews, Melisa: it was called secrets. If anyone knows that it was high school students, there were like four books. There's a scene that I just need to read again for my own brain to like, yes, you, you, you were always Keely: queer. I need that moment. But needless to say, Melisa: we should also do intros because we could just go and not Keely: introduce ourselves. New viewers, new listeners. I think mainly listeners. Well, I am Kelly C Helmick. I'm the owner of Connective Therapy. Collective. I am a queer relationship and sex therapist. I am non-binary babe queer. Non-monogamous currently solo non-monogamous currently and white able-bodied. Yeah. That's where I'm at. Melisa: I am Melissa DeSegiurant. I'm a licensed therapist at Connective Therapy Collective. I am white. I am relatively able-bodied. I am in physical recovery and so excited about it. I'm bisexual, queer, I think works for me in general. I am gender fluid. I use she and they pronouns. I Keely: think that covers it. Wow. Yeah. Oh, Melisa: Polly and Polly. I'm a poly person and I am currently dating non-monogamously. Keely: Polly person dating non-monogamous only. So to this pornography thing, I just, I realized I also have another memory and I don't want to go down too much, but this is something I think is important. Both the queer experience and unfortunately the misogyny and like really not cool things that folks can do in high school. I have this recollection, one of my first. Experiences with printed pornography was actually, I was in theater. I was on tech crew. I was one of the only femme folks there. Everyone else was like this, these CIS hetero high school, kind of like for those that grew up in Portland, Oregon area or in Oregon, like, all I can say is like the, I don't even know if we're supposed to use this word, but like hick or like, like Oregon country... Guys. And so it was me and all those guys. And so one, they would always call me lesbian. They'd be like, oh, you're a fucking lesbian. They would sexually harass me. And so there's this one pinnacle moment when three of them had pinned me down in the seat of the light booth and we're like, oh, look at this! Don't you like this? And they were shoving and I was not turned on at all. Well of course not. So they were shoving this like visual of naked women and harassing me with pornography. Melisa: Yikes. Keely: And maybe in a different, I mean, talk about like come as you are. It depends on the setting you're in. There is nothing erotic about that. Nothing sexual about that. Yeah. Just gross young men doing creepy things to somebody that they were threatened by, because I didn't want to have sex with them. I didn't want to kiss them. I didn't want to date them. And so they harassed me. Melisa: Yeah. Did it change... Do you think your experience of porn then moving forward, having it, like, is.... I'm hearing like forced upon you in a way by like people with that, there was no consent or trust or safety. Keely: I think it just took a while for me, between that and my experience with my mom who has OCD and her OCD comes out through not wanting anything to do with naked bodies. What happened is I found myself in this dichotomy of really enjoying naked bodies, but then so much shame. It's just like a swirling of lots of emotions and then not knowing how to navigate it. And so I think that's why you and I... we talked about talking about this subject today, because I think a lot of people are in that situation of how to navigate it because our stories, you know, multiplied by millions of people's stories of how their interactions of pornography it's often becomes very value-based. There is a view that's very specifically around religion. I, as far as I know, I don't think any of the scripts of organized religion has says anything about naked bodies. Melisa: Yeah. Right. Keely: So, but I think that I do want to preface as we do in a therapy session, I want to preface for myself, letting folks know I am biased. And my bias comes from an ethical standpoint around actually being an Asex certified sex therapist that I don't believe in the term sex addiction. So I want to be really clear on starting out this, this part of the episode, kind of diving into pornography Melisa: I want to echo on that too. And especially in my training, you know, here through Connective Therapy Collective, I too, don't see, you know, sex addiction as a thing. And we could talk more about that. Also, you know, part of my population that I work with, I do work with sex workers. So that is part of my bias as well. I don't come to the table saying that sex work is bad or shameful or something to, to judge. Keely: So then how do we navigate this idea? And then there's these verbiage thrown around about ethical porn use or this value around how mainly women, but there's a lot of other folks involved in, you know, pornography. And when, even when we're saying the word pornography, it's, you know, clarifying like sex work, and whether it's through the phone, it's visual, it's escorts. It's a strip club, all of these different arenas when... And there is no clear definition of pornography. Legally it's still just is, oh, well you will know it when you see it. Melisa: Oh gosh. Keely: This interesting, like differentiation, which I'll say really feeds into capitalism and a hierarchy of specific... Classes, you know, when we talk about class as far as like, income-based that we have this view of nudity as art and nudity as pornography. Melisa: Yeah. Right, right. Keely: And so we're trying to navigate that. And again, going back to, I don't want to veer too far off, but just bringing these things up so that when we're thinking about how we bring up this topic with a partner or a new lover or whoever our boo, our nesting partners, what that looks like knowing all of these things come into play. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. Part of the ethical piece seems to be having intention around those conversations so we have them and knowing what comes up for us, I'm also interested and, and admittedly not the expert or resource to go to for this, but... interested in finding out how do people ethically consume pornography? Are there kinds of porn? Yes is my answer to this question already, but that are unethical. And how do we avoid that and find the kinds of porn that are ethical. Keely: Yeah. And so we are to note, we are posting some things that we know to be ethical in the sense that people that are doing the videos and engaging in the sexual acts are actually getting paid for their for their work. And that it is verified that those folks in fact are consenting. Melisa: Yeah. Keely: Cause we're talking about capitalism. We're talking about consent. We're talking about patriarchy. We're talking about white supremacy. All of these pieces play into sex work and pornography, because that is how you start differentiating whether it's ethical or not. And the word ethical really, like you said, is it's about intention and it's about sitting down and really being conscientious about how you make a decision, right. Because there's not an absolutely right or wrong. Melisa: Totally. Totally. Yeah. You know, and this is, it's a little bit of a tangent, but I want to note it because maybe it will come back later. I'm thinking specifically about queer pornography. Yeah, I've named this in a way previous episode, maybe season one. I, I, not that I like my gators not like perfect or anything, but I've watched a lot of porn that was advertised to be lesbian porn that did not, I didn't see any queerness in the video and therefore it was like a huge turnoff to me. And so I don't know if that quite makes the cut as being ethical or unethical, but that's another piece for queer folks like finding legitimate queer porn and not straight people pretending to be queer for an audience. There's a really big difference for me. Keely: The male gays. Melisa: Like I don't get off on watching two straight girls pretend to be queer it's so it it's like, it's not good for me. I want to see queer people have real queer sex. So, yeah. Keely: Yes. And in fact, right now our awesome producer, Cardinal is looking cause I had seen some resources and I've looked at some research before that were super queer. And so we're going to post some of those links either in our social media or on the website, most likely the website, so it can just stay there. We start off with the idea. With before even having a conversation with the partner is checking in with ourselves. And what are our thoughts, you know, as an individual, what are your thoughts around pornography? What are your thoughts around nudity, sex, visual, whether it's magazine, whether it's online differentiating between, is there a differentiation between going to a strip club, viewing a video, viewing a movie? Reading erotica, because again, We're lumping these things together right now for our discussion, but then you're trying to figure out for yourself, what is your line? What is your, what are your preferences? If anything, what are your views on it? Because before you talk to another person, y'all need to know what it is. You think about these things for yourself, right. Melisa: And what comes up like, like we... I think both demonstrated now what comes up from your past? What were you taught about it? What was your first exposure? How has that shifted? Your views now, and again, not necessarily with the intention of changing how you feel about anything, but so that you can go into these conversations informed. Keely: Yes. Yes. So that's the first step and then noticing your body, noticing the thoughts that come up, really sitting with it. Do you feel shame if you're getting turned on by it? Are you, you know, a lot of folks come from like gender and feminist studies. And if you look at second wave feminism, this was a huge debate. It's still is within the umbrella of feminism. Is whether are you a true feminist? If you are okay with pornography and this split between sex workers and trans folks, and really a certain section of feminism really excluding so much of sex positivity, sex workers and trans folks. Melisa: Yeah. And it takes the assumption that stance of like all sex work is bad. All this is bad. It, it, it takes the stance that sex is shameful. Yeah. And I don't like that. That is why I was closeted for 31 years. So I'm away from that camp. It is not shameful. It is also okay to decide. It's not for me. You get to decide that you get to not like porn, if you don't like it, that's fair, but let's not judge other people for what's working for them. Keely: And this is where it starts getting really sticky. But we'll talk about it after the conversation. Cause there's, there's, there's the pre-conversation yeah. Figuring out what you are okay with for yourself. Then there's the actual conversation. There's the aftermath of the conversation. And I want to make a quick note when we're talking about this, similar to what information we talked to about different people within a non-monogamous polyamorous dynamic. I think there is a question of do you have to have this conversation with a partner or partners. Do you have to disclose whether or not you look at pornography and looking at, Melisa: I already hear that there's so many issues. Cause I hear the, the want perhaps for a person. Partner to want to know, and we want to control that behavior, which I don't love. I asked myself too, as you say that, well, say we say yes, you have to disclose that. Does that mean I have to disclose every time I orgasm, do you need to know how many times I masturbate every day? Like, what else are you entitled to know about how I access sexual pleasure? Keely: Well, and that's a yes. And so that piece of it. Is as we think through. Okay. So someone's going through individually thinking about how they feel about pornography, thinking about their own, use, their, their own thoughts around it, their preferences, all of those things. There's also this question of what is our own individual sex life and what is our sex life with other folks? Yeah, because I, I talk about that a lot in couples counseling, like. there is a sense of autonomy as a human that we get to have our own individual experiences. We get to have our own fantasies. We get to have our own... in fact, we know as a sex therapy community and as a sex educator and sex coach community. we know that if individuals are exploring their bodies, exploring their own fantasies, doing their things individually, the more they're doing that, the better sex they have with other people. So we know how important that is. Yeah. And so how much another human gets to know about that. This is privacy, Melisa: right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I'm continuing to grapple with this concept as probably the whole episode I will. So we'll see where I come to at the end of the time. But I can see how it can be beneficial to have those conversations with a partner is either clarifying ways or connected ways. Like if there was a, if there was somebody I was dating who they have, whatever their experiences are that they're entitled to, they have an absolute, no tolerance rule for porn. I can't handle my partners watching porn. I would want to know that. So that I could exit that relationship because I would exit the scene, exit stage, right? Keely: Yes. But if the light is coming down to porn- Melisa: Not to shame, it's not to say you're bad and I don't want to be in relationship with that. What it's saying is, again, I want to show up authentically and ethically and every relationship I'm in, whether it's sexual or. And for me, it would feel unethical to know that I am a porn consuming person. Yeah. To be in relationship with someone who I know has a really big issue with that, that to me I couldn't, that wouldn't be fair to either of us. So that's, and that's, so that's something that think. Yeah for individuals. So let's, let's fast or not fast forward, but let's step into, okay. You done your work individually? Yes. I like to view porn individually. I have fantasies. I'm an autonomous being that touches myself. However, I feel like touching myself. Okay. Now you want to have the conversation with your partner or partners? So again, it's not like, that sucks. Oh, I don't want anything to do with you. It's the same as what you've said before. If people had like no kids on their profile. Cool. Awesome. Thank you for letting me know. I'm leaving. Keely: Wait, so do we put it this way? Do I need to put this on my dating app? I am... Melisa: I do consume let's list all the websites. Keely: Here's all the erotica. Melisa: What do you put in the search bar? I actually had this conversation with friends all the time, Keely: so I, so, and I think that's when we think about scarcity model, when we think about fears, I think that is a really clear reason why many people actually don't want to have this talk because they are worried what the person's going to say. And then that may shift, or that is going to shift the relationship dynamic. And it may cause some really big cognitive dissonance. How do we start that off? Melisa: It's funny because we've said this before, and this is where I think maybe the, the cake community wins because I've actually had partners. Like we didn't even have the discussion, but when sex started to be talked about like, well, what, like not porn specifically. Right. But just like, what did you like, what have you experienced? Right. I've literally had people send porn and be like this, I like this. Right. And it's because some of those dynamics are, are maybe better explained visually than like trying to verbally describe what you're talking about. So I've seen that with pink all the time. Like, yeah, I want a Dom who does this? I want a seven. It, you know, and it's used as a resource. Again, to bring people closer together. So Keely: Melissa, and that is one's way, but like that's a thing that happens well, and I think when we're talking about ethical porn use, so we're calling this ethical, you just brought up a great point because part of that is looking at pornography. as either entertainment or education entertainment, something we can use modeling, but that it shouldn't be our only, it should not be our sex education. Yeah. Let's clarify that. So yes, yes. Using it as like, oh, this is an interesting like research, like different positions or different ideas. Yeah. Definitely. For entertainment. Yeah. And it's supplementary- Melisa: Yeah. Keely: Don't want it to be sex education. Melisa: That's where my sex education first went wrong. Then I went to the school talks and I got way worse. And again, that's a really, that's a really good point. Keely: So maybe also in our resources, we need to have our sex ed. Melisa: Absolutely. Yeah. Real sex ed links. That's really important. It can be a useful tool for figuring out. If you haven't explored anything sexually, really, it can figure out dynamics like, Ooh, wow. Gang bangs really freaked me out now. I don't know if that's my thing, but like that dynamic, like, yeah, I really liked that. You know, that can be helpful. But again, part of it is also knowing what porn you're watching. And again, whether it's, if it's just presentational, if it's, if it's accurate to what sex really looks like, or if it's this, if it's a facade. Keely: Yeah. And so there's resources, you know, I know there's also resources. There's a couple... there's a site where couples contribute videos. So that's another way to know with consent, you know, knowing that the folks that are creating the content are actually. Also saying, please view this. I mean, obviously, hello, talk about a kink. I mean, voyeurism or, you know, you enjoy being watched. The perfect platform to be like, Hey, y'all want to like see some porn. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. Keely: So I think then moving into the conversation piece is they're wanting to be really clear that we don't owe. As individuals, we don't owe anyone, anything. We don't owe our partners too. They don't quote unquote, get to know everything we consume. They don't get to go into our computer and look at our search history unless we invite them. Melisa: Right. Keely: So I think that's really important that. I think this is a great conversation to have, I definitely advocate for it and saying you get to choose what you want to share. Yeah. Melisa: Maybe a good entry into that is instead of asking, do you watch porn? Maybe, maybe it, maybe it feels better to go about it saying something to the effective, what are your feelings about porn? This could be part of the initial conversation about sex, that stars conversation that that modeled for us. You can add this in there, right? Like- Keely: ooh, I wonder if she has that, you know what? I should, we, I will text her because I bet if she doesn't have that in her upcoming book- Melisa: Starps, Keely: Starps, we're going to add that P in there. Melisa: Totally different direction with that. Keely: Do we need to add that P? Melisa: We don't... we're okay right now. Keely: We're allowed to go there. This is what happens when we start talking about pornography. Melisa: Truly though, you're having a conversation already about, you know, protection, STI and all of that. Hey, what are your feelings about porn? Yeah. Some, some people enjoy consuming porn together and that's part of how they connect. You know, or they, maybe they're platonic and they still enjoy watching porn together. Like there's so many different, ways these folks, Keely: Yeah. There's ACE folks that enjoy watching porn, but don't want to engage in certain sexual ways with other people. Melisa: Yeah. And similar to our fantasies. Right. We might have to see that. Our pleasure is when it lives in our fantasy life, but it's not something we actually want to enact that can happen with porn too. We can enjoy certain things, but not want to enact that. So again, that's why having that self knowledge is helpful so that we can communicate that clearly to a partner. Like I love watching this. It's that's, that's a boundary for me. That's a no-go in terms of actually doing it. Keely: I think again, as we talk about this. Looking at, how do we research? How do we think about, how do we talk more about it? Because actually in this idea of being more ethical or being more intentional about how we utilize pornography is we want to talk about it more because the more it's talked about, the less shame, anything right. That is talked about more. Then the shame is reduced. And we know that, I mean, Renee Brown talks about it. I don't think Renee Brown talks about pornography. It'd be great if she did. I don't even know even know. Does Renee even talk about sex. Melisa: I don't know. I mean, vulnerability.... How, how could we not? Keely: Yeah, but we also know that there's a lot of couples therapists and, and marriage, family therapist that don't talk about sex. So Renee could definitely not talk about sex. I don't know. I'm gonna look into that side note, whatever. Hi, Renee Brown. If she ever listened to this. and think this is the most amazing thing ever. No, there's other people, but- Melisa: She'll specifically pick the one on pornography to listen to if she ever finds our podcast. Keely: Why would she? Of all the humans. So, I mean, you never know, like I'm reaching for the stars, but Renee Brown... Wouldn't be the person. Who would I reach for the stars for. Okay. I'm digressing. Listeners, if there is someone who, who should we reach for the stars for? Because I'm all about getting whoever, whatever guests we can get on here. And like, hello, thought about Emily Gronkowski. She's still CIS hetero though. So like... but I did think about her FYI anyway. So vulnerability.. Thinking about how we think and talk about pornography, talking about it more, it's reduced the shame, and then we get to still have our privacy. And with, and I think sometimes privacy almost isn't acquainted to shame. Melisa: Yeah. Keely: There's a difference between privacy and secret. And we, and I, I love this. I know we've talked about this before and I keep clarifying it for myself and wanting to help people clarify for themselves. The difference between privacy and secrets. Melisa: Yeah. You know, in just to give listeners a chance to hear what that could look like, like say, I didn't want to talk about my porn life, but it was asked of me, you know, on a date or something, a way to be transparent and authentic, but also hold boundaries. If I wanted something to be more private, I could say, you know, it's something that it's part of my solo sex life with myself, but it's not something I feel comfortable discussing with partners. Yeah, and that's fair. That's- I get to make that choice. Keely: And now I feel like people are going to ask the question. I mean, you did a really good job modeling what you would do, but I, I do think that people are going to now be thinking, oh my gosh, what if I meet someone that's super rad, super connected to, or I've been in a relationship for a year? And I use porn and they don't like it, or I'm not okay with my partner using porn and I just learned that they consume porn. Melisa: Right. Then it's taking a deep breath. That's when we pause, you know. I am of the philosophy now in my life and my point in relationships, where I would rather things be transparent and authentic. And if it doesn't work or if it means that the connection needs to end, I would rather know that now than in a decade. I've already been through one round of that. So but I also don't believe that people's porn usage or comfort needs to perfectly align for them to have a sexual relationship together. I think there's a lot of room to hold difference, you know, to hold space for someone else, to be authentically them and not make their habits about us. You know? And, and when I say pause and take the breath, if I'm in that position where I have a no tolerance rule, I can't deal with pornography and I, now my partner, you know, I found out that they watch porn. I have work to do. I have to really look inward and figure out can I authentically be in this relationship and not just tolerate because that has a tension in it. Can I accept this about my partner or do I need to change this relationship? Keely: Yeah. And I think that's the difference. Yes. And that's where it gets interesting conversations. I, I find because I've, this conversation comes up in therapy with couples. And so that's where recognizing, is it linked to a specific value or is it something that you just don't necessarily like or, what is it about that and is it a continued conversation because I, I will often hear, and this is what I've seen when I've, when I've had these conversations. The ones that I'm coming to my mind is, has been with CIS hetero couples. CIS hetero monogamous couples and often, the dynamic and you know, this is queer specific podcasts, but this is what I'm thinking of right now. So that there is this, and I've heard this from queer folks as well though. Queer CIS women, queer out femme folks, is that sex, the sex industry pornography is... Treats women poorly. Or there's this, this blanket idea. And obviously not to say that there is not times. I mean, we know that, you know, women often the, the videos and the stuff online benefits as white, hetero white men, we know that women can be treated really poorly. We know that trans women, there's so much violence against trans women within the sex work industry. So we know all of that. So it's not to say that's not there, but in actuality, the more we talk about it, the more that it's legalized, that the less than the shadows it is, we're actually keeping folks more safe. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. Keely: And so that's the piece. So can there be a nuanced conversations if a person's coming into the dialogue, if this couple that I'm thinking of or couples that I think about generically, where the woman is saying, oh, this is not feminist or this isn't, this is anti-woman, you know, sometimes I I'll hear that. Is there, this is the, the heart of this episode, this conversation. Is can there be a conversation between the two people that talks about what kind of porn would you feel okay with in this relationship? Melisa: Right? Yeah. Keely: Can that nuance... Can, the two of you can, can the person in this case, when I was walking through this with this couple, because a couple wanted to stay together. And so then. Pulling this conversation out and having in this example was this as hetero man who then started examining his own use. And I did repeat just, hi, just re- just said a couple of minutes ago. You don't have to answer anything you don't want to answer, but what would it look like? And I asked you, do the two of you even know the concept of when I say ethical porn or, you know, ethical porn use or being more intentional, like the words that you and I keep using, I think that might outrank the ums this episode. I think some times I say intentional or ethical. Ethical is also a loaded word by the way. So that being said again, back to this conversation, these are nuanced things to think about. Anything else that you want to add around the actual conversations. Melisa: Slow down, you know, slung down, especially if it's a, if it's a loaded topic for you. Breathe. Literally. I know, again, we, we say that too, but just slow yourself down. You don't need to be in a reactive space. It's just a conversation. Nothing is happening to you in that moment, aside from having a conversation, you know, the more we can slow down. Part of the reason that's so important is to allow our nervous system to settle. So that her critical thinking stays online and we can actually have intention when we talk about it versus being reactive and being emotionally back in trauma that we've experienced. Keely: Yeah. So then we're looking at what, and I just realized when you said to Melissa, that, that we're also not talking about this idea. It's not just necessarily one time conversation. I mean, maybe it is. Yeah. Maybe it's something that you all check in with when you check in around your agreements, your relationship agreements, or we need to talk about different things, or maybe after this conversation, maybe you've never watched pornography before together, but maybe you're thinking, oh, what would that be like? And let's be clear. It could just be a movie with some hot sex scene. It doesn't have to be in the quote unquote specific category of pornography. Online. Melisa: I probably first consumed visual pro pornography before my prom. I, it came out in theaters. Keely: Oh. Melisa: With my mom. Keely: Oh my God. My mom. My mom would not let me see any of those. She would sit there at the television and turn off the commercials or turn off kissing scenes. She literally sat there with the remote control, controlling, whatever came on the TV, and I barely even had cable. So this was like she would freak out if there was a bra ad. If someone is in a bikini, so yeah. I, and then my dad's house was like, whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, you're right. I I'm sure. Yeah. Melisa: Gosh, one, one other thing though, that now comes to mind, going back to the conversation I would get out of the head space of this has to be a it's right or wrong. Yes, yes or no. Like it's not, no, we're not going to do, we're not going to simplify it to that. What I would invite people to do is embody curiosity about themselves and about their partner, like, oh, you watch porn. What's that like for you? What do you get out of it? What? Right. Like instead of, oh, I don't like, Hmm. I'm going to put judgments on you because that doesn't align with me. Right. Get curious about someone else's experience. Keely: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and active listening. Yeah. Like you said, sitting with it. And so then how do you practice compassion for yourself? However, this conversation and whether it's the beginning of a sexual interaction, maybe you, maybe you have this conversation before you are sexually involved with somebody or it's early on in the dynamic, or you have been dating or together for many years in when this conversation comes up. How to navigate after the conversation. Melisa: It's like the, you know, we're still planning an episode on this, but it's aftercare. Keely: It is! Melisa: After care from the conversation. Keely: You know, to care for the pornography conversation. Melisa: Yeah. Cause it can be for some, for some folks, this might feel like silly. Like, wow, we talked about it, whatever. It's fine. You know, for others, I guess we're assuming. For some people, it may be a really difficult conversation to have, especially if you've never talked about it before with the partner. So there may be lingering feelings or sensitivity or a need to reconnect in a way that's not about this topic. Keely: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's a time limited conversation. Melisa: Yeah. Keely: If it feels loaded or if it feels like it's bringing up a lot of different feelings and. If the two of you or more than two of you have different views on it, it may be something to limit and come back to the topic. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. It can be something helpful to work through in therapy where you have a neutral navigate, especially if you're on like different sides of the point. And that also does have the container aspect where you leave it in the therapy room.. Unless you're directed to have more conversations mental wise and leave it there and then come back to it, you know, next appointment. Keely: Yeah. And then recognizing. So I think that navigating as a couple, going back to some of the pieces where looking at, are looking at porn use intentionally. Are we paying for it? Are the people that are... The people that we're viewing, are they getting compensated for the work they're doing? Is it consensual? Yeah. Are they able to give consent? So all of those pieces are the things you can navigate for yourself, but then, you know, with your partner/ partners as well, Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And the aftercare, even for yourself, I can recall being vulnerable. I did not always, I definitely wasn't raised with the sex positive framework and that's not just from my family. Most of that is from school education. Everything that we're taught about. Where it's like don't have sex or you'll get pregnant and you'll get STDs and you'll die. That was my takeaway from sex education Keely: How we can continue as a species. I don't know. We have 7 billion plus people. Melisa: I didn't know that like people with vulvas could orgasm until I was almost out of high school. And when I first heard it, I'm like, oh, No way! Absolutely not. Like how sad is that? My God, I know. I missed out. Keely: Well, I, you know, I got to have the pornography talk with my oldest child last week because of prepping for this, I just with my child and just, and she's 14, by the way. And I was like do you and your friends watch pornography? And she just kind of looks at me. And of course it's a car conversation. Anyone who has teens knows it's always about being in the car. Cause then they don't have to like, actually look at you. They can look forward, out the window as you're talking, but they can't go anywhere. Melisa: Then it's time limited because you get somewhere and it's over. It's a great strategy!. Keely: So she's like, oh God, mom. And then she's like, and she's so my child, she was like, well, I don't know. I don't know if I like it or not, she's like, it's so much about the male gaze. At 14. You know what that word is? Are you kidding me? You know, that concept? Like, we're obviously doing that. Melisa: Like I knew that after like two swipes on chat roulette. That was the big thing in college. Right? Keely: College! She's a freshman in high school. It's high school. It's so rad. Melisa: I guess what I was going to say is for people who may be just exploring porn for the first time. For me, I had this experience and maybe similar to masturbation, although I have a different path with that, but where pleasurable in the moment, I finished my time and then all of a sudden it's like, the shame just sits in and I would go through this ferociously, deleting my history, deleting all the, like so much shame. So I just want to name that. That can happen where you can get really into it. And then it's like a wall of shame so the aftercare is really important for yourself too. And noticing if your inner critic is acting up or whatever's happening for you. So you can start to be really gentle with yourself. And I haven't done a lot of research to know, like, I mean, chemically, there's a big drop. There's a big change, right? From like orgasm moment to like that what happens next, but just be aware there may be some, some lingering shame to work through that that appears, you know, after consuming. Keely: Yeah, shame after orgasm. I mean, that also shows up in other sexual interactions, but yeah, for sure. It's surrounding pornography. And so I think this is a topic we can definitely talk about. Again, I would love to have someone in to talk about. But hopefully this was helpful for those that are prepping for conversation It's working well. Melisa: Yeah. Conversation started .Figure out what's working. Keely: Yes. Please let us know, let us know how the conversation goes for you all. So onto our favorite part is a Queer Joy. I mean, I know what I want to talk about. Do you know what you wanna talk about? Melisa: I don't. I think- Keely: Should I start? Melisa: And so yeah, you should start. Keely: You're like, wait a minute. I just been thinking about porn. Melisa: Well, this that's what's on my mind now. Keely: Well, I'm going to use some words that are very stereotypical and I'm going to use certain labels because I'm just going to call myself out for being such a fucking lesbian. Though, I don't really jive with that term as an identity, but what I'm about to talk about is like every other lesbian couple TikTok people. I officially am dating someone long distance. Yes. We had a date last Tuesday and she asked if I wanted, if we wanted to date. And I said, yes. And we had the discussion about non-monogamy. Cause we decided that we don't want to be monogamous. I mean, I didn't want to be in a monogamous- I was scared that, I was actually scared that she was gonna, she asked if, if I want to date her, but then I was scared. She's be like, well, but I want him to be monogamous and I was like, that's not going to work. And she was totally chill. She's like, yeah. I down for the monogamy thing. And she talked a little bit about her history. Yay for previous partners, because she had been dating somebody who's also non-binary yay. And it was non-binary and non-monogamous I tried to combine those two words. So we got to have this cute date. Have this great discussion, you know, over video, like a video date. And I'm like, okay, we're out of the pandemic. And now I'm on a fucking vid... I've never.. This was my first video date. They're so great! After the pandemic, what the hell? Like going backwards, but we, it was just, it's been so great. And the, and of course she also booked her flight. Melisa: Yay. Keely: To Portland. Melisa: In person dates are great. Keely: Yeah, In person is great. So she'll be here later this month which is super exciting, but it's just so, and it's just so fucking gay. It is so gay that I have a long distance person now and all the things that come with that, but it has been so much fun and I enjoyed it so much and I'm enjoying all these dynamics and it's just so, so yeah, Queer Joy.. I mean, I, I literally feel like a teenager. That's the Queer Joy.. I'm like, oh my gosh, I have a person and we like faxed and we on video and she wants to date me like that, that whole verbiage of like, do you want a date was like so adorable. Oh my gosh. So I love it. That's my Queer Joy, lots of good joy, but that's, that's my story for the week. Melisa: Amazing. I guess I'll go on the dating theme too. I am, I'm dating someone locally. We haven't had a conversation about like, they know that I do a podcast, but we haven't talked about- we're moving very slowly and it's very new connection. So I, I, I'm holding a lot of boundaries around what I share about that. Yeah. They're not, we haven't, they haven't had an opportunity to consent to that. So what I will share is about myself because this date was the first opportunity to get a little bit more dressed up. And I mean, I haven't dressed up like two years ago. Right? Like, it's been a long time. Like I'm a very long, long time. I have not worn heels in a long time. Also I did just start physical therapy. So I'm like, if I hurt myself, my PT is going to kick my butt. Like, oh, cause I have an ankle knee thing going on. But I, I also then had the experience and I'm being careful about how I say it, because again, I don't want to give too much away about this person. I was having the experience of not knowing how I wanted to dress up and feel complete in my gender presentation for the- because I am gender fluid. And one thing I've been noticing is how I gravitate towards different presentations based on who I'm with and who I'm like trying to impress, I guess. And I was like, you know what? Like I just, I feel queer. I want to be queer, like, and I want to be whatever. So needless to say, I will tell you that I ended up with an awesome outfit. I was definitely overdressed. So that was embarrassing Keely: in Portland, in Portland. You're overdressed, no matter what. Melisa: I will own it, it was great. I had four and a half inch heels. They were. Like, you know, come on now. Like I had ankle support and it was the funniest thing. It was like, I didn't have the right jacket. Cause we're between seasons. Too much. I don't really have summer jackets. So I'm like, I guess I'm wearing a blazer. I felt like, so. So gender queer and so hot and like my blazer and I, it was great. Awesome. I just need to post it. Keely: Do you have a picture? Melisa: I think not. Keely: Ah. Melisa: Well, we'll have to have like an occasion to dress that Monday when we record this, it's not happening on it for me. I'm a comfy person. Yeah, I was rocking a blazer and it felt pretty queer and I felt great. So that was my Queer Joy. It was super, super win for me. Keely: Awesome. Well, I love it. I'm loving all the gender queer stuff, of course. And just want to put out there y'all I'm doing the thing for a minute. Before we say goodbye, please, please do review. Reviews is what gets people to listen. So please do review, please rate us, please tell us what you think of this. And I hope all of you have a queer and joyful week. Thanks for listening to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. A podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective. Hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant. With the audio edited and produced by me, Cardinal Marking. Intro music is by Bad Snacks. Outro music by Victoria Instrumental. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it. If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify. Yes, you can review on Spotify now. Or send us an email