Ep 28: Are Labels Helpful or Hurtful? Neurodivergence, sexual orientation, and more.

How do you find your own way of being gay? Does having a neurodivergent diagnosis help your relationship? What do you do if you're kinky and your partner is vanilla? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.

Put QRQJ into action with our free Relationship Check-in worksheet. Get it here: bit.ly/QRQJworksheet

Find Dr. Joe Kort on Tiktok at Dr.JoeKort or in his Facebook group; Side Guys.

Shop at As You Like It here: bit.ly/asyoulikeitshop Connective Therapy Collective website: www.connectivetherapycollective.com FB & IG: @connectivetherapycollective

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TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Joe Kort: What your sexual behaviors and preferences are may not be related to your sexual orientation or identity. So when, when people say what you just said, well, if anybody's having queer sex and what does that mean about queer theory? We're talking about queer sex. That's not queer identity. Keely: Hello, everyone! Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. Thanks for coming back again. We are super stoked to have a guest today, Dr. Joe Kort, and we're going to give him a minute to introduce himself. But we also check in, cause I feel like Melissa and I have a little bit of catching up to do, and we invite you Joe to jabber with us for a minute. We do a quick little a check-in before we get started because this is all about relationships and we are inviting guests to hear about the normalizing dynamics, all different types of relationship styles and dynamics. And we've been on this journey of dating and relationship styles and talking about sex and non-monogamy and all different types of things. And so before we do introductions, Melissa, is there anything that we want to update listeners? Melisa: They'll be bored with me. I'm still working on relationship with self. That's still a theme for me. You know, also dating and I think the relationship with self is really... I kind of said this last time we recorded, but with the, with the brief revisit of winter that we got in Portland last week, I got launched back into that introspection and, you know, new flash there's more work to do Keely: Well, let's start out introducing ourselves, and Joe, will you go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience? Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. So I am Dr. Joe Kort, I've been a therapist in Mayo, it'll be 37 years. I know it's a long time. I should have never been a therapist at 22 years old. That was a mistake, you know, that was green and, and, you know, that's how it was, you know, you get your master's, I hadn't got it young. But over time, I have become more LGBT informed and kink informed. I deal a lot with trauma and abuse, a lot with male sexuality, a lot with male sexual fluidity and In that I have also grown, I've written several books. I also have a group practice here in Detroit, Michigan, and a that's been going on since 2009. And I do a lot of things in the field. I think it's a great field, lots of ways to diversify your interests. Keely: I know what I think about how long you've been doing. I'm like you do it more than double the time I've been doing it. That's so awesome. Dr. Joe Kort: Well, one time I had a student say to me that I was doing it her whole life. I was like, oh my God, I never thought she was like 36 or 37 years old. Keely: Well, I'm Keeley. Helmick I am the owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I'm a queer non-binary femme and I don't even know how much to talk about my relationship right now. So I'm just going to like, hold it. I think it's interesting dealing with breakups in non-monogamy. So that's a curious one. Not to delve into it too much, but just DC is not part of this conversation. And so we'll leave it at that. So some breaking of plans that I thought I had and navigating all of that stuff. So. Melissa. Do you want to quickly introduce yourself as we always do? Just in case someone's new to listening? Melisa: I'm Melissa. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I work at Connective Therapy Collective. I'm bisexual polyamorous. I use she/ they pronouns, gender fluid and I think that's, that's all. I already gave an update. Relationship with self. That's my big focus. Keely: Yeah, I think mines back to relationship with self for a while. I think that was my big takeaway of the weekend. Melisa: We've named the whole autonomy versus connection and not making those verses, but like, can you be in connection and be autonomous? And I will name that with somebody I'm dating. I had that exact conversation. So that was fun to be very like, transparent that like here's what I'm working on. What do you think about that? So, yeah. Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes buddy, but also you're in front of the scenes buddy, because I'll be recording a special mother's day episode with Keeley, Melissa and my mom Willow. So keep an eye out for that. But anyways, I'm here now to let you know that if you're needing to have a conversation about autonomy versus connection, we have a tool to help you facilitate that. It's our free relationship checking work. And the link is in the description. All right. Back to the show. Keely: For sure. Yeah. Well, and I think speaking of relationships and the longevity of relationships, Joe, one of the reasons I was really excited to talk with you is because you have a love story that has been over, correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's over 20 years? That you've taught- 49 years. Yes. Yes. And we love, I mean, that's the thing, hearing stories about long-term relationships and what's going well, so... will you tell us your story? How did the two of you get together? Let's hear it. Dr. Joe Kort: I'd love to tell the story. It's very sweet to me. It's very sweet. I, all of us feel that way, you know, about, I think about when you first meet your partner. But so we were both, I was 30, he was 37. He was just coming out and, you know, the rule in our community is don't date somebody just coming out. They're going to have to go through all the stages. And then they have to go through the adolescence. Their damn adolescence. And, and I, I did stay away from most people like that, but there was something about him. I just thought it's worth the risk. It was a vulnerability in his face and in the way he expressed himself when we, he, he actually pursued me, which is going to be weird when I tell you our story, but he would make sure he was around me. all the time. I think today we would call it cringey. Maybe back then. I would've said a little creepy, but it didn't feel creepy. Wherever I looked, he was staring at me. Wherever we went out afterwards at the gay community center, he was next to me and. I just, he was kind of awkward. That's how I saw it. It was awkward. And it really was. And then we went on a first date, you know, when two guys or two women go on a date, you don't really know. Is this a date? Is this is a friendship, unless you've established it in some way. So he looked at me and he said, is this a date? I was like, nobody ever says that. That's such a vulnerable thing to say. So I looked at him and I said, I'd like it to be a date. If you would like it. I'm considering it one. He said, yes, I would. And then the next time we went out, he looked at me within the first half hour together and he said, are we still dating? It's vulnerable and open and honest, which I don't come from a family of like that. I very much like that. I crave people like that. Well, I did not know at the time, nor did he, it was 1993, is that he was on the autism spectrum and back then we would call it Asperger's. But we were diagnosing kids, not adults. And we didn't know. I, and he didn't know until over time. We had lots of problems because we were neurodiverse couple. He's neurodivergent. I'm neuro-typical and we would go to therapy and people would say, it looks like he's more of a engineer brain and you have more of an emotional brain. Which was true, but it was not the full story. So we never really got the right therapy between us. And we almost broke up many times because we just were so different until 2012, it started to click for me. I was getting the adult clients who were diagnosed with Asperger's. We don't use that word anymore, but that is what the word was. And you know, I started realizing Mike had those traits and I saw this, this movie called Adam. And Adam is all about an adult man with Asperger's and how he, and the very first scene, I, I, it was, there were maybe two scenes that didn't apply to Mike and once I realized, and we were watching big bang. So Sheldon was just like, that's who I'm married to. Is that guy Sheldon. Yeah. And then once I realized that 50% or more of our problems died down because he was predictable, understandable. I always knew he was trying hard, but I couldn't really, I always thought if you're trying hard then why can't you do it? You just couldn't do and couldn't say, and anyway, so that's kind of been the, the main story of our relationship is acceptance of the neuro-diversity. Keely: Except into the neurodivergency. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, you've made it 29 years. Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. And I, and we've had lots of you know really good times, but also really scary times where he looked at me once and said, you're too angry. I don't want to be with somebody that's angry. I didn't know if I can go on and I would turn to him years later and I had to work on that and I'd say, I need somebody more emotionally available. I know it's hard on you, but these are the things it looks like and he had to do that a little bit more. Like couples think if, if you get to these points that you need to break it off and you can talk about breaking it up, but you can come back together, and that's what we've been able to do. Keely: Yeah. And especially during the time, I mean, so can you put into context, I'm trying to do the math in my head. So nineties, nineties is when you met, right? What year? Dr. Joe Kort: 93. Keely: Yeah. So putting that into perspective to where we're at culturally as two gay men and what was going on- Dr. Joe Kort: it was actually a perfect time. It was I think Clinton was the president and he was doing the don't ask, don't tell, but, and nobody liked that at the time, but it was at least putting visibility of gay male couples. And I remember seeing even we went to a gay pride March on Washington and it was the best time to have met somebody. Gay pride and gay, like LGBT life was coming to another level and the world was coming to do another acceptance. It really was great. Keely: So it's really exciting. Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. And there was yeah, it was, it was more visibility. Will and Grace was on TV. It was a time for pride. I really am grateful that it was that, that point in my life. Plus I had all my twenties to date all the losers that got me to Mike. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I was like, oh my God, that is brutal. Right. And I remember my twenties thinking, am I ever going to find someone? And then I found him and it was perfect timing. Keely: When you started dating, how long did it take before the two of you like moved in together? What was your timeline? I think it's always interesting to hear those. Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. So here's the thing. So that this sound, it sounded normal, but if you put the autism spectrum, man, it was even more normal for that. Normal in the sense that he already owned a house, I was just starting a private practice. And so I was living in a tiny little apartment. He had this big house in a nice neighborhood that I never thought I'd live in. It wasn't very Jewish. I'm Jewish. He already had put a lot of money into designing his home. So there was like one room available that was not designed and I didn't really appreciate any of that because even though I'm Jewish- people had misconceptions that because you're Jewish, you're rich or you have money or you're middle-class and I was working class, no money. Mother's secretary. So I didn't really appreciate the money that he had put into this house. I remember thinking he'll either sell the house or we'll burn the furniture with this Georgian style crap that I didn't like at the time. I was more modern Zhang, and anyways, we fought over that for a long time. It was a year and a half before we decided, yes, I'll move in. And I, he would not let me touch a thing. I wasn't able to move a knick-knack or put a knickknack, except if it was in this one room in this house. And I agreed to it with the understanding that I'm not going to pay towards your mortgage, I'll pay for everything, but towards your mortgage. And then when we decide, and that'll be my money, either move out or I'll put toward the house when we're ready. And we had like a two year agreement around that. That was just how we did it. And it worked. Keely: That sounds so sensible. Dr. Joe Kort: And that's the thing about Mike is he's way more sensible than me and I like sensibility. I just don't have the brain for it so it worked out. I liked that word. Keely: Yeah. And also, I mean, that your age, I mean, I think that's different. You said you're already 30 versus being like 22 or 25 and brushing. I mean, I, yeah, that timeline sounds very reasonable. And how many people do we know? Queer couples that start jumping in, you know, three months, six months, and you're like, And then it burns out. Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah it totally does. I think he wasn't going to do that. He was being very cautious. I wasn't going to do that, but I did know. I knew sooner than him because I had dated so many different guys. I knew I didn't want someone in the circuit community. I didn't want some hookup guy culture. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If that's your life, it wasn't mine. I, and back then, I don't know that I'm so much like this now. Back then I wanted heteronormativity as a gay man. I wanted a house, marriage, a husband. I wanted everything my sister had. I wanted my life to look at her normative. Today, I don't give a shit about that. Back then. It was important to me. And Mike was like, Yeah, Keely: Can you describe that a little more? What that shift? So at the time that you, I mean, because again, speaking culturally, that makes sense. And that time period of wanting to be accepted and be part of the normative part of socially normative things. How- what was that like for the two of you? And did you feel like you reached that status and when did it change? Dr. Joe Kort: I feel like we did reach that status. Absolutely. And yeah, because we lived in a nice neighborhood. My demands to be seen as a couple in my family were, were met and by coworkers and over time, you know, he would come to things and people would invite us together as spouse. So we, we worked hard. I think we both had a little bit of activism in us so that we worked really hard to make that happen for us. And then Yeah, it was fine until we had a marriage. We had a Jewish wedding, even though he's not Jewish. We, we did, we had our parents there. It was really all the, all the, all the things that I wanted to do as a couple. And then probably after our marriage, that was in 2000, maybe, I don't know, 2000 15, 16, 17. I just, I think we had done it all and we were, it was enough. Nothing really changed for him. He was still wanting all that, but for me, I had other needs, other wants but I didn't want to not be with him, but I wanted to go out and I didn't mind the visibility that somebody might not see me as heteronormative anymore. Melisa: Yeah. Funny how that can happen after marriage. That was my experience. When I was previously married, we did kind of all the relationship escalator. And then like a year after marriage, we kind of looked at each other like, all right, now what? Like, we did all the things. We didn't have children, but you know, it's like, all right, You know, Facebook official and all the ways that the public wants to see. And like now what do we want to do with our lives? I checked all the boxes. Dr. Joe Kort: That's pretty normal, probably. Yeah. Keely: Yeah. And so was that, that time period, cause you have mentioned that that you are a non-monogamous couple, was that when that ships it around that time? Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. So for me, I had identified many years as a sex addict because I had unwanted kinky, sexual desires, fetish and desires. And Mike knew all about that and Mike was not interested in it and I didn't want to do it with him. So we had like a vanilla life together. And I sort of marginalizing my other, trying to get myself an erotic ectomy. I call it right. Trying to slice this out of me. Melisa: That's a great word, Joe. Yeah. Dr. Joe Kort: Cause there's no such thing. You can't do it. And I realized, and I looked at him one day and I said, I really want to do this. I loved it when I was doing it. I, I just was out of control at the time because no one helped me. Nobody helped you be kinky. You know, we have kids come through and teens who are naturally kinky, but it's not seen as natural because they're so young. Like how could it be natural as a young kid. Mine was natural. That's my orientation. That's who I am. You know? And if you don't help them understand it, then they're going to act out and do an impulsive. You know what I mean? They're not going to do it in a, in a way that is healthy for them and healthy expression of it. Anyways, so I said to him, I no longer want to identify this way. I don't think I'm a sex addict. I think I'm just a kinky person who wants to act on that, but not with you. And could we look at opening our relationship? I've zero and still has been zero interest in romantically bonding with any of these guys. I think I'm romantically monogamous. Sexually non-monogamous. Keely: That's really helpful and I appreciate your sharing that because I think a lot of people will have different variations of those feelings with, with a long-term partner and not know how to navigate that. And then it sounds like, so your spouse he's down with this and did the two of you and you don't have to answer this, but I started asking questions. I'm cause I'm curious. Cause I think when people hear one of the things going on, I just actually read this on a feed today. It's like, you know, as soon as you open up the relationship. It changed. It's going to change the relationship no matter what. So I'm curious how it changed your relationship and how did you make it work? Like we're, we're looking at these success- well, successful may be a loaded word, but looking at the two of you together still thriving, what, what helped that? How did, how did it work? Dr. Joe Kort: And I can't speak for all couples because everyone's so different, but for us, yeah, for us he, we, he knew what it was. He knew what I was going to do. He didn't really want to know about it. We had a don't ask, don't tell. I really didn't want to tell anyways, cause I know he didn't appreciate it or it wasn't in his schema to enjoy anything that I was doing. And he just said to me, I'm okay with this as long as you're safe and don't bring anything back here and and you know, that's it. And we have like a secure attachment. I guess that's what I would say. That's one of the things I did not grow up with. So I think that's why I was drawn to maybe hit his autism spectrum because you get security. When you, when you marry somebody and you partner with somebody autistic, you can just feel it. And I love that. And it made me more secure. But I remember even saying to him, if you're not open to this, then we'll probably can't stay together because I do have to do this. It's like your orientation may include autism. My orientation includes kink and fetish, and I have to have that meet that scratched. I can't deny that. Melisa: Yeah. You know, even without him wanting to know details, it still sounds like the foundation of your relationship had so much communication and vulnerability and just honesty. I even heard you talk about like, agreements that the first living situation. So in some ways, like you're a bull primed, you know, for this anyway. Dr. Joe Kort: You know, I've never had somebody say that to me. And I really appreciate you framing it that way, because one of our arguments used to be that he doesn't talk much. I'll say to him, why do you love me? And he'll say, I don't know. I can't say I just do. Like, give me five words today. He does communicate. It's just not in the typical way that you would think. Yeah. Keely: And so when you brought that into your relationship, that that understanding that recognition of like, oh, this is what's going on. So he hadn't ever been told that either. Dr. Joe Kort: That he had autism? No, he didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. And he knows the, a therapist I used to think, oh, what did your mother do to you? What kind of trauma did you have? What kind of abuse? I was sticking to that story. And, but there was nothing. Every time I looked at his family and asked about his past, there was really nothing. And it was really this. And you could see as a child, his early pictures, he smiles, smile, smile, and the smiles go away and puberty. That's very typical of autistic kids. Very typical. And I thought it was trauma, but it wasn't. Keely: So being that can I, can I call you an elder of the queer community? Dr. Joe Kort: I'm not bothered. Keely: I think it's an honor. I mean, we don't, we're not the podcast to go through the whole history of the LGBTQ, but we can say that it is really beautiful to see folks who are at this stage and be able to learn. And I know not everyone say this, I mean, you know, Joe, social media, all the things are so focused on like younger age groups than me, you know, I'm only 41, but so focused on that. And I'm curious, and I haven't asked this question before, but I'm curious. If there's things you say to younger folks or there's things that you would say to people now, having your experience, knowing what you know, and your relationship the ways that you've worked through it together, like, are there things that if someone was sitting next to you and, or in front of you, a young person, what words of advice or just what went well, what what's working? Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah, that's a really good question. I, I do try to do these things. A lot of young people are not open to it. They see it as predatory, even when you try to just be friendly about it. And so I guess I, I don't know. I guess it would depend on the advice, but maybe mostly that: we're not raised gay, right? Like I was raised reformed you. I knew what kind of Jew I was. I knew what kind of Judaism worked for me as an adult because I was raised that way. When you're not raised gay, you're just gay. And then you have to go find your people. You don't know who your people are. Like, what kind of gay am I? What kind of gay am I? Who do I want to hang out with? And, and I guess for the young people, I'd like to help them not feel so pressured to have to be in certain groups or be a certain way. And I, that's what I love about what I've done with my life is I've made it my way. I just did it exactly how I wanted it to be. And then when it changed, I changed, I didn't feel like any gay peer pressure. Keely: That's really lovely. Melisa: Yeah. As you said that too, it made me think of, of the comment about sexuality too. And like we're not necessarily raised as sexual beings. Like we, we have this way of no teenagers and kids have no sexual impulses. And I guess by doing that, we've talked a lot about shame on this podcast and it feels like similarly, you know, if we're not raised gay, if we're not raised sexual, then we accumulate some sort of shame or fear around those things that we then have to work through. So I love that mission. Dr. Joe Kort: I do too. You made me think of something when I was, oh, one thing I do notice, and I guess it's negative. I don't mean to be negative, but it really is true. When I was a young gay guy, every gay and lesbian person, the fact that we just had gay and lesbian, right. We didn't say gee, LGBT, everybody thought they were the expert on everything and you were not. Okay? It's gotten worse now. Now in the L and the G and the B and the T, everybody. And it's like, oh my God, there is a lot of expertise out there. But don't tell me that I don't have expertise too, you know. Like in the Jewish community, we buoy each other out. Oh, you're in. Let's let's hear from you. In the LGBT community, we pushed out, pushed out. I'm an expert. I can't stand and I can't understand why it got worse, but it's a lot worse than 30 years ago. Melisa: Social media popped up in my brain automatically, you know? And like, I wonder if it is that fear of shame, like I have to be the expert to prove that this is okay. And so I have to be right and I have to know everything if it's that, it feels like it's coming from a fear space of having to tell somebody else how to do their life. That's just a projection, right? Like our own stuff. Dr. Joe Kort: Instead of, Hey yeah, you are an expert, but I am too. We can both be experts without canceling each other. Yeah. Keely: Yeah. I was going to say cancel culture. I was also going to ask how this informs, cause you work with couples. How does this inform you work with couples? Do you work with a variety of couples? I mean, we know, I mean on TikTok, we know what your specialty is, but... Dr. Joe Kort: I do work with a variety. It's got a little more specialized because of my being on TikTok. But I mean, I've worked with gay couples, lesbian couples, mixed orientation couples. I primarily work with straight couples. A lot of people don't believe that because all my work is gay and I'm gay, but you know, even straight people will call my office and say, do you see straight people? And I have to say, like the kid in the sixth sense. I see straight people. I didn't come from some gay planet, land here and then learn your habitat. Keely: Yeah. I mean, like in our community in Portland, I don't know. It's like in Detroit, Michigan, but in Portland, the dating pool, like if I only saw queer people specifically, I'm already. Not being able to deal with a lot of people. So that would just leave me Seattle and Victoria BC. Melisa: It's not ideal here. Dr. Joe Kort: And, and as I've gotten older, I have, I used to be able to talk about the kind of couples I saw, the way 2 gay men relate and joke about it. The way to women relate and. As I've gotten older, my white male cis-gender profile has eclipsed my gay profile so that when now when I talk about lesbian couples, I don't even do it anymore. I don't joke about it anymore. I even tried it on on TikTok. I, I toned down my joking and just what I said, I really felt was an honoree. Oh my God. The lesbians of Tiktok came after me. It was awful because all they see is this white male, cisgender. They don't- and then I was trying to defend myself, but I'm a gay guy and I've been working with gay and lesbian couples and I know that it didn't matter. It's really gotten kind of ugly, I think. Keely: Well, it's interesting. Cause I just seen a podcast today. It's we're having gay sex and the host Ashley was saying the only reason she gets away with the joke she says, because she's a woman and she's a lesbian. So there is something to be said about intersectionality and also where we can say things and can we just have some compassion and yes, we can talk about things, but yeah, Joe, you have quite the following and TikTok and you get lots of inflammatory comments, lots of people comment. Well, and I think, I mean, I'm going to bring it out. Cause we have some time and we're talking about relationships and couples and I'm I do because it, I don't like to cancel. I am not a part of the cancel culture for the most part. And I mean, one of your things is that men having sex with other men. And I think that that specialty, especially the dynamics of couples. So I'm assuming you see in that piece, does that come up with your couples when you're working with them? Dr. Joe Kort: No. Well, the coming out happens because the wife discovers it through the internet, through all the emails or something. It's been like, I have a whole book about it. And I remember I had a writer help me and the writer said, how come every time a guy who tells his wife he's caught and that, because men don't want to share about this. It's straight men who have sex with men. And even though there's more and more and more research, it's great research. Now that's just coming out about why straight people have gay sex. People can't hear me. It's very controversial. To me, it's such a simple concept. We know that gays and lesbians have had heterosexual sex. They have, they're very capable of being sexual with another gender, but but not the other way round. Keely: Well, and that lends to then it's interesting to think because like, and we, we're not... this isn't the topic of the day, but it does lend itself to think there's queer theory that says if everyone's queer, then there's not actually queer. And it's, it lends itself to think. What if actually everyone is some kind of sexuality that just includes all different kinds of genders or expression. And if we were actually able to express how we want to in that moment, is there even anything such as queer and this may get me canceled because I think that's what, that's what that brings up for me when you talk about it. When I, when I see. You know, pieces or when I haven't read your book, I'll admit it. But I, but I, but I've heard you speak, I've seen you in classes and that, I think that's the piece that almost hits on an identity piece. Dr. Joe Kort: Well, and this is what makes me crazy. I love that you just brought this up. So I was part of a generation before me and some of them a little bit after me to help people understand that what you do in bed, does it make what, who you are in terms of your identity? There are two different things. What your sexual behaviors and preferences are may not be related to your sexual orientation or identity. So when, when people say what you just said, well, if anybody's having queer sex and what does that mean about queer theory? We're talking about queer sex. That's not queer identity. So just because a straight person has sex with the same sex doesn't mean they're queer or that they're not straight because what we do in bed doesn't inform- it can, but it doesn't automatically inform who we are and how we self identify. Melisa: That's a cool distinction. I haven't, that hasn't entered my brain before, so I really appreciate you saying it because I think I would have, I would've framed Keely your statement, but the other way, like as the resident bisexual, right? I'm like everyone's queer! What are you talking about? You know but it is a good distinction. Keely: Yeah. Dr. Joe Kort: Everyone's capable of bisexual sex. It doesn't mean everybody's bi. . Melisa: Yeah. Keely: Well, let's because I have heard, and the piece that I think about as people will ask. Depending on how a person is sexually, how that defines gender and does what we do in bed to find gender. What we do sexually define gender, especially with like non-binary queer folks or CIS women that are lesbians, like there's this distinction. And so I think this, I mean, this lends itself to a much bigger discussion, but I, I, I am seeing, like, I hope people are listening and thinking about this because it does. What I would like to see as a more fruitful conversation and not just cutting off because I know my gut instinct. I mean, I'll be, I think I've told you this, Joe. Like I was like, but that means they're gay or they're BI and I really, really want to label them. And so I will say that, what, what is refreshing about this right now is that, can we sit with this and have a full conversation with it? And can I set my assumption or my gut reaction of where it feels like my identity is being threatened because it's not about my identity. It's about somebody else, but it does feel, it does feel like that when I'm talking about it. Dr. Joe Kort: I think because the culture has gotten, I didn't even know this til I got on TikTok. How much the young people feel like what you do in bed is who you are. I remember going, wait, wait, wait, wait, how did this happen? Because people always assume that that my being gay now, they go, their mind goes on medically to what I do in bed. What I do in bed has maybe related to being gay, but like for instance, I'm very out about this. I've never had anal intercourse. I'm not into topping. I'm not into bottoming. It doesn't, it's never even crossed my mind as a young man. And so I call myself a side. I come out with that term, right. Does that mean I'm not really gay because I'm not having queer sex and, and the, the straight men who are having queer sex and getting pegged by their wives. Like to me, I know that I, I don't mean to be contemptuous, as I'm saying this. I'm not trying to be. It boggles my mind that people would, would decide that.... That what you're doing informs who you are. I don't know. Melisa: Well, and what my mind goes to is what about asexual people? Like if you're not having sex, does that mean you don't get an orientation? Dr. Joe Kort: Right, right, right. Because you can be asexual, but you can also be gay and bisexual or lesbian and asexual. Exactly. Yeah. Keely: Yeah. No, that's really helpful. And I think when we have, when we're able to have more words to describe things and we really take ownership that an individual gets to define themselves just as, then we can have these fuller discussions and I'm just having all these thoughts, like relations relationship wise, because I do think. I remember being in a consultation group and someone was talking about a client and the client was a, non-binary a fat person who really, and it was pansexual not, and really wanted their aim AB you know, cis- male. And they just said, please fuck me like I'm queer. Like, if you can just, people can just have sex in that way all inclusively that yeah. Maybe. Like anal play is a great one. When you talk about like CIS men and with whether they're with women or with men, but especially if they're with women and they're romantically oriented to wanting to date and be married to women, but still find pleasure if they're getting pegs. If they have, if the woman has a strap on -- the woman wearing the strap on, that doesn't make her gay. I was like a woman using a strap on does not make her gay. Melisa: It doesn't say anything about her gender either. It didn't say anything about gender. Dr. Joe Kort: Yeah. Yeah, no. And I've had many lesbians in my office who have raped fantasies by straight men. Train up straight men. Right. So you're even nodding. Does that make her not lesbian? Fuck no. She's a lesbian who has rape fantasies. It's the whole, it's politically incorrect and it's your erotic orientation versus your sexual orientation. Her sexual orientation is lesbian. Her erotic orientation includes rape tendencies and she doesn't even want to be raped. It's a fantasy. Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Melisa: It almost makes me want to change like the sexual orientation. Like, can it just be like connective orientation or like, is there another word? That will confuse it so much? Keely: Well, I think Joe, you know, with Doug Braun-Harvey, one of the things that, I mean, there's so many things about him that's awesome and I remember when I first took his training many years ago, it really did stick out to me when he said that when someone hears the word gay or lesbian or bisexual, I mean, sexuals in the bisexual term, they automatically think about sex and then stop listening. That was the piece that really got me. And I said, whoa. And I think that's still true that, you know, in, in certain, because people have such a hard time talking about sex. And so if they're just thinking about us as these like overtly sexual beings and that's all we do or think about, because of course, if you're queer, that's all you do. No. That that's how people, that's, how we're being seen. Dr. Joe Kort: I was just thinking about this yesterday because I live in a non-Jewish area. Right. So everyone's wishing me Happy Easter, and I'm very politely correcting them saying thank you. I'm Jewish. They were like, oh, happy Passover. But when someone assumes that I'm straight and they talk about my wife and I say, oh no, I'm not, I don't have a wife. I have a husband. I'm gay. People have a, what do you mean? Why do I have to know that? What are you telling me that for? Dude, I'm not gay. Like, wait a minute. I'm just, you know, because it's, their mind goes immediately to sex. Just like that. Keely: Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh, why are you telling me about your sex life? You're like, I'm not, I'm literally, I don't want to, you don't get to know that. Dr. Joe Kort: I just like telling you I'm Jewish. I'm not going to convert you and give you a bread and a mitzvah right here. I'm not going to, you know. Keely: Well, Joe, I really appreciate this today. I love your insight. We're going to have to have you back on to talk more about. Specifically all of the, all of the therapy type things that we, I love hearing about your story with your husband. And it's really nice to hear all people of all walks of life who get through 29 years together. It's just this beautiful. We do like to wrap up, we, our thing is to talk about our Queer Joy of the week. And so, and when we say Queer Joy, like people will ask kind of like how we're just talking about like orientation and all these different things. What does it mean for Queer Joy? Well, I just, we call it pure joy. It just means something happened joyful to you. You're queer. We're queer. So, and Melissa, well, Melissa, I usually start off, Joe. If a story comes to your mind, you can start, but we usually start. We'll start it off to have a sample. Melisa: How are you feeling Keely? I have my Queer Joy. I'm still living my Queer choice so I can go first. Keely: I feel like you should cause I'm in breakup mode and so my brain is wired. This is the chance to identify the pure joy from the set from, separate from the sadness. Yeah. Cool. Melisa: Cool. Well, I will, I will kick it off then. I I'm still, like I said, I'm still living it. It was so wonderful. So as a person working in capitalism, I believe in taking time off and I do have some kind of official time off coming at the end of May. And I hit the point last week where I was like, that's too long. I can't wait that long, and so I was able to pull half day last Friday. I didn't have to move things around too much. And I took myself on a date to a tulip farm and it was about an hour south of me. So I forgot how much I love road trips too. I haven't been out of Portland in a long time. So that was a part of my story is I'm an ex musical theater person so I sang Wicked from my house all the way to the tulip farm. That's not already stereotypically queer joy. And I was there for like five hours cause I wanted to see the sunset and then we had a full moon rising. Oh my gosh. It was incredible. And just to be in solitude, it was like five hours of mindfulness because I really wasn't doing anything, but being present and taking photographs and some really good people watching too. I just was so grateful. It, you know, I've, I've said on the podcast, especially I think at the beginning of the year, really focused on self dates and, and, you know, figuring out what I like and what I enjoy and this was a little bit bigger than just going to a movie. You know, this was like a whole afternoon and it was great. So I'm going to make a tradition of it now. Keely: Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. I would say that my Queer Joy of last week was very much about meeting new people and then I did have a really fun, I have an old friend from we've known each other since we were 12. I was trying to do the math. So it's been, I'm not doing math. Over 25 years, 27 years, whatever. And he has three kids and. We got together and we had met some, I had met a new friend and we're all hanging out and we closed the bar down and everyone who knows me is like, oh my gosh, Keeley, like you were up, like, I usually fall asleep between nine and 10 at night. So they were like, you were up till 2:30 in the morning. I mean, that was kind of joyful, not, not joyful the next morning, but really was about the connection and I think that one of the things that I have noticed as we talk about this focus of relationship with self, and then I've been in a more non-monogamous dating is that I'm creating so much more room for my friendships than when I was monogamous. And part of the, I mean, that's part of the challenge with the queer relationship dynamic and the toxic part of the toxic monogamy, but I just really am seeing so much more room for those, for that. And I'm very, very joyful about those connections and those new connections as well. Dr. Joe Kort: That's wonderful. Well, I like that. I would say, I know this is going to sound arrogant. I was thinking, should I say it or not? But it is what it is. I went to Austin, Texas to see Diana Ross. She was playing there. Seventy years old. It was really fun, really fun. And we went to a gay bar, a gay bear bar, and which is it was pretty packed actually. And I was recognized there as the queer TikTok guy. Oh, man, let me tell you why I like that. Because every 10 years you kind of go out, you know, like I've written books, I was popular and then nobody knew me again. And then I did this and people knew me. So now TikTok has given me another breath and it was kind of fun, kind of having people say, oh my God, I like your stuff. Or, you know, whatever. So that was my Queer Joy in a gay bear bar. Keely: Oh, that's amazing. Yes, for sure. There's so much ageism in our culture and I think it's fabulous that you are out there, the age you're at and you know what, above 40 on my God and above 50. Oh my goodness. So much, you know, like there's all this talk of fear, you know, people in their twenties like, oh my God, when I hit 40 or, you know, I can't imagine what I'll be like when I'm 40, it's a beautiful, beautiful story. And I'm so glad that that you're, you're just, and you're living life. And I think not only you showing people that you have this relationship that's lasted. And it's also like as a gay man to be you're going out and living your life. It's not about age. Dr. Joe Kort: I'm going to be like share. I'm never going away. Yeah. Keely: Well, on that note, Joe, is there anything that you would have upcoming or any information that you want to make sure and share with the listeners so they can check you out? Dr. Joe Kort: That is a good question. Well, I mean, if somebody is listening and they're gay or they're a man, they don't have to be gay. A man who doesn't like penetrative sex and wants to be a part of our Facebook group. It's called Side Guys and it's private and people can join that. We have 4,600 members in there now, which are from all over the world of guys who just don't get into penetrative sex. And I might write another book about that. So that sort of give that name and put that out there. But otherwise I'm pretty much focused on my group practice and TikTok. Keely: Awesome. Well, and you can all find, Joe is very easy to find on TikTok and thank you for joining us today, Dr. Joe Kort: Thanks for having me, ladies. Thanks for having me, folks.. Perfect. Keely: All right. Thanks, y'all and I hope everyone has a Queer and Joyful week. Cardinal: Thanks for listening to queer relationships, queer joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melissa DeSegiurant. I'm your producer Cardinal marking audio is edited by Mars. Gasper. Intro music is by bad snacks. This week's guest was Dr. Joe. Fine Joe, on his Facebook group side, guys and on TikTok at Dr. Joe court. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it, if you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy, Collective dot com for more queer joy. Visit our website at www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.

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