How do you know it’s time to introduce your metamours to each other? How do you talk to your kids about your poly relationships? What about your friends? All relationships impact other aspects of our lives, and polyamory is no exception. Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
Put QRQJ into action with our free 5 question worksheet. Get it here: bit.ly/QRQJworksheet
Shop at As You Like It here: bit.ly/asyoulikeitshop Connective Therapy Collective website: www.connectivetherapycollective.com FB & IG: @connectivetherapycollective
Listen here:
TRANSCRIPT
Melisa: The research supports that in non-monogamy there's less jealousy reported than in monogamy. We take away, the jealousy by meeting and making things clearer and bringing things into the light so we don't have the whatifs, and all of this room for our brain to fill in the gaps with the worst case scenario. Keely: Hi, Melisa. Melisa: Hello. Welcome back everyone to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. Keely: Welcome. All right. So today, it's just the two of us. We just finished up interviewing a couple of weeks . We had the mother's day one, which is awesome. And we talked about the complications of the many different relationships in lives. What do you think about that? Melisa: Sounds relatable. Keely: Yeah. I have been thinking a lot. I was actually just listening to the episode from Multiamory that was talking about metamours. And that really inspired me, not just to talk about metamours, but to talk about all these different dynamics within relationships. And it's not, not just polyamory because let's face it, just because you're monogamous in a monogamous sexual, romantic relationship. There are still complications around relationships sometimes. Melisa: Yeah. We've talked about community before on the podcast and I think this theme is very much in line with that. We're talking about when we get to that point in relationships where we're wanting to integrate our community, whoever we're seeing, our friends with family, with coworkers, even with the people that we associate with and expand those relationships in a bigger way. Keely: Yeah. How do we integrate? That's a great label. I feel like I say this so much, but it's like how to even... I can say that there's many, many layers to my relationships right now. And just when I thought I was simplifying thing, like legit, I I'm not on dating apps right now. I was like, oh, I'm going to get off dating apps for a moment, pause, I think I said that earlier, but if I didn't, I am pausing from that. And yet. There's all these relationship things coming up. For those that listen to Cameron Esposito, and if I'm butchering their name, I apologize to. I would love if you actually happen to listen to us, choose your name. I'm so sorry. And they're joking on TikTok about the question was like, oh, what do you do if you have a crush on one of your friends? And she's just like, oh, you date them. And then you break up with them and then you follow them on Instagram. And I mean, I know where all my exes are. One just walked out the door, like Melisa: have location tracking on them to see where they're at, what they're doing. I know that game. Or, you know Keely: forgot to take off the location tracker on their phone. Yeah. We'll share locations with other people. So the interesting dynamics of a lot of queer relationships, not just queer, this happens to straight folks with straight folks too, but really these dynamics around these queer relationships and breakups and integration and, and what would the opposite of integration be? I want to say something other than decoupling, but the separation, isolation. Yeah, I take, when you break up with someone, decide that they're not part of any of your lives now... Melisa: disintegration, disintegrating, disintegration. If that's not a word, it is now. Keely: That makes me think they're not even around anymore. So, well, I guess we could do quick introductions. My name is Kelly C Helmick. I am the owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a queer non-binary femme, solo, and white able-bodied hanging out there trying to figure all this stuff out, just like along with everybody else. Melisa: And I'm Melisa DeSegiurant. I'm also a therapist at Connective Therapy. Collective. I am white, working on being able bodied again, I'm in physical recovery from long-standing injuries. I'm bisexual. I'm polyamorous. I am, I almost want to say like poly influenced or inspired because I, I think that if I say polyamorous, people are gonna assume that's always the relationship style I choose versus like the orientation or like my perspective, but needless to say. I'm gender fluid and queer, queer just feels like the all encompassing word that works for me. Keely: So I wanted to start because I think it's nice to start with something that seems, I was just say simple. It's not simple, but with a title, like. First, this was inspired by people meeting metamours and the stress and the anxiety that that can cause for everyone involved. When you think about people meeting metamours, what comes to your mind, Melisa? Melisa: Jealousy's the number one thing that comes to my mind. Whether it needs to be there or not, the fear of being replaced or somehow that there's going to be this competition for like status and relationship. And that's not what comes up for every person by any means, but that's sort of the overarching thing I hear from folks when they're getting ready to meet metamours for the first time. Keely: I hear that jealousy. It's interesting because for me, I actually do better once I meet the people. I noticed that I have more jealousy before I meet folks that are involved with the people that I'm dating. Melisa: And that's what the research supports and non-monogamy is. Well, actually, I shouldn't say that. Let me take that back. The research supports that in non-monogamy there's less jealousy reported than in monogamy. And I don't know that there's research around the concept you just brought up, but it is something talked about in all of the literature that we take away, the jealousy by meeting and making things clearer and bringing things into the light so we don't have the whatifs, and all of this room for our brain to fill in the gaps with the worst case scenario. Keely: So having more clarity. Oh, wait, what I mean, communication. Melisa: Oh, look how we got right back there. See how we did that. Keely: Around this topic is just general anxiety about hanging out with people currently, that's just around. And so adding on top of this idea of integration and having people meet each other, there's a layer tense of social anxiety. Cause I think we're all just trying to figure out how to interact at this point. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. Social anxiety seems to be really high right now. Certainly for folks who already experienced that, but even some of my clients who didn't previously have that experience are now reporting like, I don't know how to talk to people. I don't remember. Especially people I haven't met before that I don't have rapport with like, it's just super awkward and I don't know what to say. Keely: Yeah. And one of the things, so I think about like, what are helpful tips or what do we want to say when people are getting ready to meet or how I would say even before that, how do people know? Or how do we know it's time to meet a metamour assuming we're talking from the perspective that this is a, not necessarily a kitchen table poly dynamic, but that it's not a don't ask, don't tell. Melisa: Right. Well, in the similar concept, in monogamy, how do we know when it's quote, unquote time is if there's one right time, right? To introduce who you're seeing to your family or introduce who you're seeing to your friends. Keely: Yeah. And family, meaning it can be if you have children. And I think children can definitely be different than a sibling. Your parents. I mean, again, we have this hierarchy. When I think about the introductions, we placed this hierarchy around certain groupings of people and it's a very CIS hetero thing. Cause I don't think as queer folks, we do that quite as much. Definitely because there's many folks that are still not able to introduce their partner or partners to a loved one. Yeah, like biological family. Even if they have a relationship with their biological family, there is still plenty that are either, even if they're not in the closet, it's this own variation of family. Like, oh, we just pretend, and don't talk about who you're dating or in a poly dynamic, they might not be out as poly. Melisa: Right. Yeah. And so much of it just depends on the situation and the person, because I'm thinking like for me, introducing someone to my parents feels like a bigger step than introducing someone to my close friends. Which is interesting because my close friends are like -my closest family know me the best- but that feels more comfortable. Versus I've met people's parents early on and been very like, oh God, I'm meeting my partner's parents. And it's been like very chill and not a big deal at all. And there's not all this expectation. And I don't know if that was because it was a queer relationship and, you know, perhaps my partner's relationship with their parents dictated why it wasn't like such a big thing, but it was like no big deal. Like whatever. I don't care. Like, you know? Keely: Yeah. I have seen that happen. I think we're going to keep saying this and it's going to be that we're exploring this because there isn't one right answer, but that there is very worthy discussion points because there are so many different ways to do it. And I think that the number one thing is talking to the people and really making it your own. Just like how when we talk about relationship agreements, this is kind of a spinoff of roulette relationship agreements. I definitely don't think this is something that needs to be talked about right away but at some point will be talked about and how do you have that discussion and how do you know when? Melisa: It may come up because of a timing thing. I'm thinking of, like, once you get past the very initial stages of getting to know one another, there may be like time constraints on how much time you can spend together and less integration happens. Well, you know, you want to come hang out with me and my friends, then we can spend this time together. However you'd have to be integrated in the friend group so that I think that's when the conversations start. I think it's important to go to the why. What's the purpose. Because even as I said, in my example, like there would be a different why for me introducing somebody to my parent than to my friends and, and in some cases there may not be a really emotional high stakes why, it may just be like, yeah, because like, it's weird, we've been dating for a while and like, I'd want you to know them. That's fair. And that's a different energy than like, well, you know, if there's some other big why. I can't think of one off the top of my head. Keely: Yeah. I mean, I think with children, so I remember, I wish I still had access to this, the article because I read it years ago, but it was about specifically for queer parents and when to introduce partners to children. And they said a year, they said, wait a year and please someone, please, please someone write in and tell me your experience because up until this past year, I have never said, well, no, I did have one relationship. I think that I waited about 10 months, but most of my relationships, I haven't waited that long with my kids. And I will say now that my children are older, there's something about waiting longer. Melisa: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering too, and this is something I've not done any research on nor do I have personal experience, so it's a very authentic wondering, but is that different in monogamy and non-monogamy? Keely: Yeah, and I think that, I would say generally speaking, yes, and it's how you do it and how you said Melisa, it's the why? I definitely do think that there's less pressure because when you're open with your children about being non-monogamous and you have this influx of different adults in their lives and normalized people coming in and out of our lives, not just sexual relationships, but friendships and, you know, grandparents die, different people die, and you have this flow of change and you have these conversations. Definitely most non-monogamous folks have more vocabulary and these discussions more often. Melisa: Sure. And I could imagine situations where a partner might be introduced, but not in a way that, like, this is my romantic partner who I'm going to build a life with and spend forever with and you need to like respect them as my romantic partner. It may just be like, Hey, here's a friend of mine. Keely: Yeah. And then the idea, like step parenting or like being a step parent again, we're, we're moving, if anything, the goal of talking about these things outside of the relationship escalator, because I think there's this script of how a relationship is supposed to be in the monogamous and the compulsory monogamy. You know, we use the word sometimes compulsory heterosexuality a lot, and also want to introduce compulsory monogamy that like, this is how it's supposed to be. When I use the term compulsory monogamy, I am talking about often times this piece of the relationship escalator and the hierarchy. And so if you don't have those things, if you don't have the end result of a sexual romantic relationship: you move in, get married, live happily ever after, if that isn't the script, then we're shifting how we interact. Or if we even do bring in children to the dynamic. Melisa: And it may be the same for friends and not just children; perhaps in non-monogamy like there may be partners, I've certainly had partners where it didn't necessarily make sense to introduce them to all of my friends. Not because of length of time or just because of the nature of that relationship that there wasn't a why that I could point to that it would be useful for anyone to integrate. So that's also possible versus relationships that, for me, feel like they're meaningful and they might be integrated in my own life, like my own relationship with the partner that I'm talking about. When I'm looking to integrate them in a more central way in my life is when my brain starts going towards, how do we introduce you to them? The people who are also central in my life. Keely: Like you feel that urge that you want to introduce them. Like- Melisa: it's like, if you're all going to be in the inner circle, then let's all sit around the table and get to know each other. If one of you is going to be in the periphery or like an outer circle or like a fling that I don't necessarily need you to spend time with my best friends. Keely: Yeah. And it's not the same, but I feel like the anxiety that's brought into the situation, the piece of the monogamous minded person is introducing your partner to your friend who's also your ex. I think that's the closest thing that a monogamous person can get a feeling for a metamour and there's so much judgment, and there's all of these assumptions around this certain interaction. And I would tend to say correct me if you think it's different, I think that there's more jealousy in monogamy around meeting a friend who's an ex than meeting a metamour. Melisa: There's certainly a lot of judgment. I guess it depends. That's my answer to everything today, which is really annoying. It depends because perhaps if it's like fully isolated, like it, I guess the part that I'm having trouble with is that with non-monogamy, there could be lots of different setups. And so if it's all as kitchen table, everyone's on board and everyone's open then. Yeah. Perhaps it wouldn't be as like, okay. Yeah, you guys used to date, no big deal. But not every setup is so like relationship anarchy and open that way, you know, especially there's plenty of people, gosh, myself included where it's like, well, structurally, I could go monogamous or non-monogamous which means I'm dating people who is had varied experiences with non-monogamy or not. So that changes it. Like if there's a motto poly dynamic in terms of our orientation as humans, and now you're beating, like it still could be complex. Keely: Well, and I mean, honestly, sometimes depending on the group of people I'm talking to, there is this unspoken thing. There's sometimes you're not supposed to even be friends with an ex. Container of ownership that if you've had that dynamic, you can't have a friendship. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. Keely: Or there's a certain amount of time that has to go by. Melisa: I'm glad you bring that up to you. Cause I've been sitting here thinking about what's my own current experience with within. Which initially feels really tricky because my best friends are scattered around the country. And that's truly my inner circle. My family doesn't live here and I have very few connections here where I'm living now. And, you know, I do have some friends and they're new friendships. So there's not really a like integration. I'm more thinking about if I were to, you know, my partner's friends or something like that, but, or someone I'm dating and their friends. But as I say that, when I first came to Portland, the way I made friends was through dating apps. So most of my friends are people that I've dated or had some experience with or like was a metamour. Right. So, yeah. Going to be a thing, like at some point whenever there is any integration between anyone I'm dating, it's going to be, yeah, this is someone I dated when I first moved here or like I dated. You know, so get ready, everybody who wants to date me. Keely: Well, and I had an interesting experience currently. So I've mentioned that there, you know, I had this breakup and DC and I actually spoke and she said, That she identifies as 95% monogamous and wants to set this like space of time where we transitioned from dating to being friends. And for me, I noticed, I was like, well, the boundary is we don't talk about sex. And I'm very clear about doing anything that is sexual or romantic towards her. That's the boundary, but I'm like, well, why can't we just be friends? Why does there have to be this transition time? But she wants to transition time. So of course I respect that. So we talk on Thursday, it's all centered around this date she has the, I mean, talk about monogamy. And so then I get this text this morning, it's like, oh, Hey, how's your workshop. By the way, my day would really great on Friday. So let's check in, in June about friendship. I'm like, what? Okay. And then the kicker is, she's like, oh, have a good day. So I'm like, okay. So I have to really structure my brain around this monogamous mindset of this really strict delineation. And by the way, I will say she is good friends with some of her exes. So I know that I'm not the only person that is an ex that she wants to be friends with. Melisa: That's not like a thing, but yeah. Keely: I mean, it's super queer. We are friends with our exes, if there is anyone that is queer that is not friends with their ex, please let me know. Melisa: Yeah. The other piece that I feel like it's fun to talk about, I guess it goes back to the why again. But why for again, because I, I'm not in a position where I have all my friends and family around me that people would be integrating automatically. I'm thinking more about like, what do I like about meeting my partners' friends and family. I genuinely love that. Like, I love that. And it, for me, it isn't about like, oh, we've reached that mark where like, now it's official because I meet, it's not that it's that I find that different parts of people are brought out by the people that they are loved and supported by. And so I want to see those other sides of the people that I'm dating that I can't possibly bring out. That's what I really love to see is like somebody get, and all of a sudden they're like super comfortable and these jokes are cut right. Like that kind of a concept. That's what I absolutely love about integration. Keely: Yeah, you get to see these other parts of people. And that is their community, is their family, their friends, and different people bring different things out in us. A beautiful thing to think about. Yeah. Melisa: And even the queer part of that, like, it gets interesting for me, especially as like a bisexual person, because there's different energy just surrounding relationship when I'm in relationship with this man versus a CIS woman, for example, it's just different. And part of that is internalized stuff that we play out roles in a way that we've been trained to. But part of it is the way we're perceived by society. And I bring that up because I recall when my ex, when integration was happening, I don't want to say too much about how that happened in the relationship, but essentially they got introduced to the queer side of me where- no. My ex was introduced, oh, your ex-husband, of my personality and not come out in our relationship other than snippets when I'm hanging out with my theater friends. Cause they're that stuff it's all related for me. And then enter a situation where I'm dating, you know at that point, somebody who is identifying as a, cis woman also happened to be a theater person. So I don't know how much that played it. And all of a sudden, a real queer part of myself that was not really brought out by my somewhat CIS hetero relationship, even though I'm neither cis nor hetero. And certainly wasn't brought out by the, the environment and the people who are directly surrounding us, which was mostly our work situation. So yeah, like a whole new side of me got to be brought out and it was so fun for me to like step into that. And then also for me to share that with my partner. Keely: Yeah. And as you're saying that like the different parts, like how awesome that is. And I was also imagining it. Conscious way. If we're trying to boundary how connected we are to somebody, we may consciously decide not to meet other people in their life. What's really awesome and interesting about this conversation is that when you're conscious about it, and you're looking back at the why, I can see where there are specific people that I don't introduce to certain friends. Definitely obviously people, I don't introduce my kids because once I introduce people to my children, I mean, my children are literally a part of me. And a different part of my personality comes out as a mother. I'm a very fucking queer mom. And not CIS mom, but I would say probably one of the best parts of me and some of the worst parts of me, all combined, people see that, but not everyone gets to see that. Not everyone earns that privilege. Melisa: And it's okay. It's okay to keep relationships sacred and separate. Keely: Yeah. And when it's purposeful and it's talked about, and community created very clearly, then that's just how it is. And it's really lovely because then you can invite people in when you want to, or you can have I'm thinking also the dynamics around a very specific relationship, like dom subs. Sometimes we talk about compartmentalizing as a really positive thing. Sometimes it can feel not so positive. Like, oh, you want to be a fully integrated, authentic person, but there are pieces that are really great to have some separation and boundaries when they're intentional. And it is intentional and consensual, everyone involved knows where each other stands and where it's at. Melisa: Yeah, just like we've talked about with non-monogamy specifically. It's not that kitchen table is the only way or the best way for every scenario and there's not really a term for that in a monogamy, but similarly, not, everyone has to meet and be friends and be hanging out all the time with everyone's partners, family, friends, coworkers, in order for it to be a healthy situation. The boundaries are really useful. Again, it's communicated and consensual. Keely: I think there's this conversation to have around what are these assumptions? What are assumptions? What are they these assumed? This is how it's supposed to be. These are the people I'm supposed to meet. If I don't meet these people, I'm not important. How much are we each placing values on ourselves? That the relationship is only valued if X, Y, and Z is involved. Melisa: Yeah. What meaning are we making of it? I go back to that example I gave earlier, I was making a lot of meaning about meeting a partner as mom. That was not valid. That was about my own mom and my own relationship and how it would feel for me to introduce someone to my mom. It had nothing to do with them or the situation. Keely: Yeah. And I think about going back to, we talked about like anxiety and I'm thinking of all, what all of these different meetings have in common is feelings of nervousness, possibly, and some anxiety. And I wonder what we can bring up and talk about to help people maybe if not completely ease anxiety, at least lessen the anxiety. Melisa: Like if you're having to meet partners, people. Keely: How does it through Melisa: the partner? Introducing? Keely: I would say both. So I often think that the person introducing people to friends or family can be the more nerve-wracking or people pleasing because they're there in the middle. That person. Melisa: Yeah. Like feeling like they have to orchestrate and make sure it goes well or something. Keely: Yeah. Like, when I was listening to the Multiamory episode specifically about Keely: , I really enjoyed how they were talking about the idea of possibly being too much of a people pleaser to all the people and remember for yourself also, what do you need? Because if you're focused on your partner and either you're introducing a partner to another partner, or if you're introducing your partner to family, whoever you're introducing a partner to, you also need to think about yourself and what you need in that dynamic? Yeah. Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And who's this for? I know in the past, I've made an introduction happen between two partners, and I mean, nothing negative about how it happened, but I realized in hindsight that like, oh, that was for me. That was so that I could feel comfortable engaging further and more deeply in these relationships. And everyone was on board and consenting and it went fine. It didn't become some kitchen table in the sense of like every week we're hanging out because that wasn't what those partners needed. They didn't need to be friends with one another. They didn't necessarily even need to meet each other, but I needed that. So yeah. You know, it goes along with the why, but who is it for? Keely: I think that's a good point. And again, going back to consent, maybe it doesn't have to be enthusiastic consent, but we do want to know that a person does want to be involved in this. Right. And around the anxiety piece, I thought that was interesting. Someone brought up having a word or having a phrase. And I've talked about this before with couples. I talk about this a lot when we're talking about family gatherings, like if it's a social event, a birthday party, Christmas event, some kind of holiday, I guess a Memorial Day weekend would be the soonest holiday coming up where there's this pressure to be in a situation to meet people and having a plan. And that plan can look like having a code word or like a phrase remembering you can leave. Honestly, the best situation, unless long distance, it's not helpful, like if it's like a multi-hour drive, but if it's somewhere like you're all in the same area, bringing separate vehicles. Melisa: Sure. Yeah. You said have a plan. I'm glad you clarified. My mind went to getaway plans. I don't know what that says about me, but I get away. Where's your, where's your exit strategy? Keely: You know, this is the wedding where the person books. Yes, I was thinking more of just talking through the idea of like taking a break or having a code word or if someone wants to leave and the other person doesn't want to that feeling of being sick or having to leave, if the other person wants to leave, if the person's not ready, this obligation to stay. Melisa: It depends on the scenario once again, but we've talked about this with difficult conversations. It can be helpful if like time constraint. If it's not just some open-ended we've thought this whole day and whatever happens, like make some solid plans around, even if it's not an end time pivot points, like, okay, we're going to do this activity for a minute, you know, an hour or whatever it is, then we're going to pause. We'll regroup. See if we want to do something else. See how we're feeling. That gives people a chance to reevaluate. That's already built in and people can establish: is this going well, did they want to leave? What do they need? Keely: What I like around this people pleasing or not having to please everybody, there was also this concept of it's not going to be a hundred percent equal, so don't put your pressure on yourself to, oh, I just checked in with this person for this many minutes. So I need to check in with the other person for this many minutes. No, like you want to check in with people, but also interacting and being yourself as much as possible in the sense that also checking in with your needs. We don't want to control people. And if we're trying to have a situation go a certain way, that is its own version of trying to control the situation. Melisa: Thousand percent. Keely: So, and I would say then if we're talking about checking in, let's step outside and check in with ourselves. How is our body doing? 90-second check-in, body scan. Melisa: And there's always time for these check-ins. I do hear people like I don't have time. Go to the bathroom. That might happen anyway. If you have to use your bathroom breaks as you're check in then so be it. But do take that time to check in and I will say, again, even outside of non-monogamy, and when I was monogamously dating and introducing partners to friends, I would have friends track me and like, this wasn't even agreed upon, but they would call me on it and be like "you okay?" You seem tense. Because I'm the people pleaser. I'm the host. I got to make everyone happy. Right. And it, you know, it was helpful to have someone like you seem stressed. We're all. Okay. Everyone's good. Why don't you take a break? Keely: Well, and that's the anxiety piece. Yeah. It's like addressing the anxiety. There's a little bit of nervousness and excitement, and I really want to delineate between that and anxiety. And if you're someone who struggles with social anxiety or anxiety in general, really want to hold space for that. And some of these practices are more like the nervousness will kind of fade away, but social anxiety increase. Being really specific about a plan, letting your partner or partners know that if you can be open with your friends and family about that, so that they understand you're going to be doing things to take care of yourself. And let's face it. We're all trying to hang out right now. We're going through these different dynamics of relationships and introducing people. Some folks have been literally only doing, mainly not in person hangouts, video hangouts, phone hangouts. We can have these intimate relationships over the past year or two that haven't been in person and we have not formulated it. And so on top of that, we're just trying to figure out how to hang out with each other, even if we know other people very well. Melisa: Right. Like relearning how to hang out with people we used to be in person with that we haven't been in a really long time. Keely: And heck, do we shake hands? Do we bump elbows? Do we give hugs? I mean, I don't, I don't know we're all figuring it out. Melisa: Right, right. We're we're trying to figure out what everyone's comfort levels are. Keely: So, so much more to talk about. You know, we may have to split these topics again. I think it would be really great to do an episode on dating someone with social anxiety or having that as a topic. I will say, speaking of the social and how to meet up and socialize again, Queer Joy of the week. Melisa: Do you have one? Keely: I do. I was trying to figure out what it was. There was lots of pieces, but I think that socializing is definitely the one I would say Queer Joy. It's kind of a two-parter, but it's all included. Speaking of dynamics of relationships, so I'm hanging out with a friend who's an ex and we're still navigating our relationship, whatever that is. But for now, we drove down to Eugene together and I got to see friends that I haven't seen in two years. And they now have a 10 month old baby. Melisa: My goodness. Keely: Even got to meet when one of the partners was pregnant. I didn't get to see them when they were pregnant. And it was live music. Melisa: That's amazing. Keely: I know we hung out at a kitchen, not kitchen. We keep talking about kitchen table. Poly- A picnic table, all hanging out. I got to hang out and hold the baby. A dance. It was so much fun. So that was a really cool part of the socializing, a little anxiety invoking too. Cause it's very crowded, but luckily we had a table where we could hang out and then dance, if we wanted to. And then I got to do the queer sex and communication workshop. Yeah, it was in person. Melisa: That's amazing. Keely: It was hybrid, which is, I think just how it's going to be. It was in person and also being done live stream through Zoom. So it was a really cool. It's the first one we've done. It was really awesome to get to interact with people in person about sex and communicate. So cool. So that's my Queer Joy. Melisa: There's a lot of joy there. Keely: I love it so much, so much. And you know, always, always some baby love. Always some baby love. Melisa: Well, good. Mine is, yeah. It's not one specific event, but more just how the weekend went. I've been really enjoying the weekends and embracing my time for just my life outside of being a therapist. It's really important. I had a really good amount of socialization. I got to spend time in ways that I didn't expect to. That was really great. Thought I wasn't going to get to see people, and then I did. So that was huge. And then yesterday, again, as we're airing, this is going to be after the fact, but celebrating. Here, we call it Beltane, but I'm studying Irish Paganism, which they would be horrified if they heard that pronunciation. So I will say the Ultima and celebrating the transition again, kind of deeper into the spring season and doing a lot of ancestral work and connecting and the way- yes, there's a queer joy of the interconnectedness and relationships that I've been forming. But for me, I would say the bigger overarching joy is more like the place I've been able to embody in the past couple of weeks. And a lot of this has to do with meditation and mindfulness. I've been a lot more formal and consistent in practice. And also in my ritual, which is my spirituality. with that, I've just temporarily reached, I'm not going to say this is going to be here forever because I'm human, but I've reached a really beautiful state of just non-striving where there's a lot that's happening and a lot that's developing and I don't need to control any of it. I'm just sitting back and enjoying it. And as it comes, it comes and if it goes, it goes, but I'm really in that kind of flow state of just enjoying what's here. And again, that's going to be fleeting. That's just normal, but it's pronounced right now and it's noteworthy. So I really want to pause on that. Cause that's definitely the bigger Queer Joy. Keely: Mm non-striving. Thenjust coming into the fullness of spring and new things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for a great discussion and look forward to more, to come. You know, all of you. Thanks for listening. And everyone have a Queer and Joyful week. Cardinal: Thanks for listening to Queer relationships, Queer joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melisa DeSegiurant. I'm your producer Cardinal marking audio is edited by Mars Gaspar. Intro music is by bad snacks. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it, if you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy, Collective dot com for more queer joy. Visit our website at www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.