Do we need to label our sexuality? Am I actually queer if I don't label myself? Isn't it enough just to vibe and love? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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TRANSCRIPT
Maia: I wanna break out away from the labels. I really think that that is what I mean. It's less about inclusion in a specific group. It's more about, I want to include all of these parts of who I am. I want to be all of these things, and that is how I identify in some ways. Welcome! Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. Yeah. Melisa and Maia is here to join us again. Yep, yep. Yep. Here I am. Keely: We thought we'll try something a little different and have we're just gonna all co-host. We're gonna have three people chatting today and kind of explore what that is like. Cause I think, we're talking about relationships. It's always fun to bring in more voices. And I think people like hearing our voice, Melisa, but I like hearing other voices as well. Melisa: Me too, me too. And I especially love getting to have the people we work with at the Collective on the podcast, because so often it is, you know, just our voices, Keely or, or someone we're interviewing, but when I'm bringing up concepts and all these discussions, they're coming from all of my colleagues. So, so thank you for being here, Maia. Maia: Absolutely. I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to just have that conversation like this, like just let's talk about stuff. Keely: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about things. Yeah. Before we, I wanna, and I wanna hear more what you have to say, including your recent Ani DiFranco conference. But before I get into that, let's do quick introductions. Yeah. So that any new audience members know who we are. I am Keely C Helmick. I am a licensed professional counselor and certified sex therapist, owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a queer non-binary femme, who's also currently super solo, solo non monogamy, and white, and Melisa: uh, Keely: currently nursing an injury. So I will say that it is an injury, an acute injury versus anything that's long term, hopefully not long term, but who knows. Yeah, so that, that's where I'm at middle of July Melisa: And I'm Melisa DeSegiurant, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor at Connective Therapy Collective. I am white, bisexual, mostly able-bodied, I do have some chronic stuff, but it seems to be under control at the moment. I'm polyamorous, solo poly, and I identify as gender fluid. She and they pronouns. Maia: Awesome. I am Maia Bellavia. I am a MSW student that interns at Connective Therapy Collective. I am white and native American. I'm Choctaw, and I am right now, lesbian. I am playing with some other terms. Queer, not sure. I don't know. I'm still figuring myself out if I'm really honest. So I think I don't wanna label myself fully all the way yet, cuz I'm not ready for it. I am currently in a lesbian relationship and I know that I'm headed in that direction more so. I am a mom. And I have added to my title. I'm a human growth and development specialist, cuz I think that that's really, my whole life is to help folks grow and develop. And I love that job and that title. So I'm gonna keep holding that on tight and then I'm able bodied and. What else? What else? Am I missing anything else? Good. Add? Yeah. I can always add, I can add, I may add, but that's where I'm at right now. awesome. Awesome. Hey, it's Cardinal. You're behind the scenes, buddy. Hope you're hanging in there. If you're looking for some community support, did you know that we have a free ongoing, queer and trans drop-in group? Every Thursday from four to 5:00 PM. Facilitated by the amazing Amanda Best and Danielle Walker, they cover topics such as building connections in queer community, exploring relationship structures, sex and sexuality, navigating identity expression, and the impact of social expectations on mental health. Cardinal: It's still virtual. So you can attend from anywhere. Well, almost anywhere our providers are licensed in Oregon. So you do have to be an Oregon resident to. if you're interested, the link is in the description. All right. Back to the show. Keely: We're done with Pride month. We are like full swing in July, looking at all the things going on. And I will say the topic today was really inspired by thinking about dating and being on dating apps and then seeing all the happenings going on in Portland, Oregon and in social media, because let's be real, now that people are back outside and doing things... it is still a very on topic thing to talk about the TikTok phenomenon and how all of these mainly cis women, but some general queer folks, but really this phenomenon of like cis women coming out later in life as they've been tagged later in life lesbians. Maia: Yeah, I think, I think this is exactly where the term should come in to play where we say coming into, not coming out. As I, I think later in life, it's a whole different ballgame. It's coming into ourselves versus coming out. Keely: This later in life lesbian term and this phenomenon, I think it's a developmental generational thing. My hope is that people continue to grow and evolve. When I look at younger generations, there's just such more of a breath of being able to express self sexually that isn't so confined to one way to be. But I I mean, I will say we can all have our own definitions of later in life, by the way, because I am seeing people that are like 25, 26 calling themselves later in life lesbians. I'm like, hold up. Melisa: Your brain is still developing. Just finished developing. Maia: Yeah. Yeah. So just for the record, I'm 44. I came out at 40. So I, I do feel like that's kind of later in life coming out and that was after heterosexual 20 year marriage. So 20 year relationship, I suppose. But anyways, that I think that that's later in life and it is a whole, it's, it's a different way of looking at who you are. Yeah. Like I've, I've already been so much, but this is such a huge portion of who I am now that it's the part that I think the later in life, where it comes into play is you have all of these other experiences in your life that you've already lived through and it is who you are. But yet you have this such an important aspect to relate to and start acknowledging and now bring forth and become publicly that's the coming into piece that I think is such an important topic. So I'm really happy we're here talking about it. Keely: So, yeah. Maia, tell us about Ani Difranco concert. I wanna know how was it, I wanna know about all of the people you saw and like the people watching. Yeah. What was it like? Maia: Yeah. So I did, I went to concert just last week to see Ani it's- I think it's like my eighth time to see her. I love her. She's definitely one of my heroes. And it was interesting because it's definitely different to go in now as a lesbian and have that title and that connection with it. And so, yeah, there's like this whole group of folks that are like up at the stage that are the, the older Ani Difranco fans that are really into her music. And then there was this like kind of outward circle of younger folks that are listening and kind of there. I'm gonna tell you it was actually a disappointing experience for me. Keely: Oh yeah. Maia: Yeah. Because there was a lot of talking and a lot of folks that just wanted to hear the specific songs, like, oh, the popular ones, the ones, and otherwise they talked the whole time. And then you've got the group of like a hundred of us that are like squished up to the front and, and are, you know, waiting for every word to come out and singing every word. So that people watching was amazing. But also, I think one thing that was really cool was the variety of folks that were at an Ani concert, right. That was amazing. And she even noticed it and acknowledged it on stage that there was a lot of men folk or, you know, that, that were there, that she was like, recognizing that, you know, we actually, I'm happy you're here. And like, what are you doing to help the situation? So yeah, it was, it was really cool. It's a fun concert. I also went with my aunt, my lesbian aunt and she is the person when I was 12 or 13, who brought me my first Ani DiFranco tape, my cassette tape, very first album. She had got that cassette tape from, in other words, bookstore here in Portland and brought it to me in Oklahoma. My little 12, 13 year old self, and that with rights of passage, The Indigo Girls, and I just, that changed my world right there. Changed my world 13, 12 years old. And I was like, yep. That's okay. Life is different now. So it's been a, it was a real kind of full circle moment for me to stand in that Ani Difranco concert. Identifying as lesbian in a lesbian relationship and loving that and standing with my lesbian aunt who brought that music to my life and that new frame of thinking and actually not a frame of thinking. A new way of thinking, no frame involved. And that was, that was a full circle moment for me as a later in life lesbian that felt like, oh, okay. Wow. This is good. This is, yeah, this is where I am. This feels right. Keely: Well, and so when you think back that little person in you, did you understand your breath of your identity or no? Maia: Yeah, no, I don't think so. Not... I was never necessarily stifled as a child from seeing things. But I grew up in rural Oklahoma and there wasn't anything different to see. And my aunt came out probably around then somewhere. I think between that I was 13 and 15 ish. Keely: And how was she, or do you remember how old she was? Do you know the age difference? Maia: She must have been about 25 and that's probably when she came out, she knew a lot, a lot younger than that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was actually, it was very interesting. I was very close with my aunt and when she came out, I was angry and really confused and I like, and I it's interesting looking back on it. I don't know why now I can't figure out what those emotions or feelings were. And then when I was 16, I came to Portland. She had moved to Portland at that point and came to Portland and hung out with her and all of her lesbian friends and like fell in love with it here and hung out in other words, books. And I had really, really long straight hair and cut it all off. And came back home as a different human. Yeah, I mean, so that younger self, I don't know if I understood the magnitude at that moment of what it was about the music and the words and the feelings that I had when I would listen to the music. I don't know if I knew that then I think I've always grown up in a way now that I look back on it as I was always captured and motivated by women and children and how beautiful women are and the bodies of women are, are amazing. So I think that that always was part of my life, but I never grew up as it being wrong or different. That's just part of who I am. Yeah. But then you get, you fall into that whole thing of, well, you gotta follow the regular relationship. Keely: It's so fascinating, even thinking as you're talking, I wonder how many people who are listening relate, who had these inklings and yet still transitioned into heterosexual dynamic relationship, marriage, kids, because that's what we're taught. We're supposed to do. No matter what our gender is, no matter our sexual identity, no matter our life experience, there's still this expectation of this is what you're supposed to do. And this is how you fit in. And this is how you're part of community. And I think that's something we don't explore enough, or I'm just thinking about right now is like, oh wait, if we wanna belong, we go into this way of being. How do we belong and not fit the norm? So Melisa, I dunno if you wanna tag in, well, first of all how do you feel about Annie? Melisa: A totally different experience and also this is a really cool conversation to be witnessing and be part of because there's so many themes. I feel like I identify with, but I'm also not a lesbian. And I I came out at 31 and I had been, you know, in a marriage and in a, in a straight appearing relationship for 10 years. So I get, I totally identify with that. Yeah, you've kind of done your one life and now you're stepping into a new way of totally being in your body. But also, yeah, I grew up in a different time. My idols, when I think like queer idols for me, it's like David Bowie, it's Freddie Mercury. It's like, I just, I've always, you know, bisexual men, gay men are like my home. I, I don't know if that may, is that weird for bisexual? Like people to say? I don't know. No, those are like my queer idols and it's not that I don't still resonate with some of the lesbian icons, but I also don't feel totally at home in that community. Keely: Well, when you said that, not feeling at home in the community, I think part of the thing with the coming into the later in life lesbian and culturally speaking, we're seeing these transitions and divides between our larger LGBTQIA+ community. And when we have this title and talk about lesbians, I think it is very generational. In fact, you know, you mentioned Indigo Girls and we have this very Oregon type of human that we think of when we think of lesbian. And is that, you know, is the term even, is lesbian starting to fade out? Are we gonna continue to use the word lesbian? I do think there's some re-identification with it. I, listen, I mentioned it way too many times, but whatever. When I listened, we're having gay sex and one of the the co-host I guess, when they talk about their identity and they call themselves a non-binary masc, lesbian, bisexual, lesbian, dyke . And one of the things that was interesting and fascinating and helpful was because people say you identify as a lesbian. What does that even mean? You're non-binary. You're masc. And for them, it's like, oh, I'm in a relationship and part of the lesbian community. Maia: And so, and I think I never really, I respect both that idea of, I, I think. You add a whole bunch of titles because we are a little bit of all of these things. And I think for me thinking about later life and also your thought Melisa about, you know, I looking for a home and that's not really where you felt like you fit. And I guess for me, I'm in this whole realm of wait a second. I actually wanna take off my labels I don't know if I want a label. I am really excited to not have one, but yet I really recognize the importance of that idea of community around it. And so that's where I'm coming into this new world is well. What labels do I feel I want to attach to myself and then what ones do I wanna really, like, I kind of wanna blow up that label thing for myself. And I don't know if I want that. Melisa: I think adding onto that too, I'm with you on that. Like how do we kind of blow it up and expand, especially like, as a poly person I'm in relationships that feel really differently. Like yeah. You know, I, I don't feel like I could walk into a lesbian bar with one of my cisgender male partners and be welcomed by any means, you know? And then I feel differently when I'm, you know, with either non-binary people who are AFAB or cis women. So. Yeah, I'm not gonna pick just one . That's why I'm non monogamous, right? Like all facets of my personality and my sexuality get to be explored. Maia: Yeah. And I think I haven't even explored anything yet. That's how I feel later in life. I haven't even explored anything yet. Yeah. So how do I put a label on that if I haven't explored it enough to know. Melisa: Totally. Keely: So when we're talking about community, we have these new Bars popping open. We have Doc Marie's that just opened. We have Sports bra. We have Queens Head that's newer, and I think there's another one too. But when I it's very Portland specific. But I definitely talk about like West Side lesbians and Sports Bra is very lesbian. Queen's head is very queer. I haven't been to Doc Marie's yet. I will give you the report of what I think of doc MAs when I see it. and I do think there is a sense of community and there is a sense of where do we wanna fit in or who do we want, who do we fit in with or where, where is our community within the LGBTQIA community at large in Portland, Oregon, but where is the actual, and then, you know, listeners that aren't in Portland thinking about where theirs is. And then again, coming back into this label of later in life lesbian, or like folks that are coming into themselves when they already have this community. And I will say one of the hardest things, one of the difficult things. And something that took me years to recognize is when I got out of, I was always undercover. I was never in a cis hetero relationship. People just thought I did. And I hid behind that. I was out when I was 19, but I really did have this, what I thought was a great community, but I was just looking for family in my twenties. Yeah. And so. My spouse at the time, my ex-husband, he was very fluid in the way that he expressed himself as a man. And he was friends with all the lesbians. He literally, at one point had more lesbian friends. Like what we think of is like Portland lesbians like that. There's a whole crew and being in the box of this CIS hetero appearing marriage, CIS hetero monogamous appearing marriage. I really got so many things out of it community-wise and then I think for people that are stepping outside of a CIS hetero marriage, that drop, that like loss of community when you get divorced. I mean, CIS hetero people experience it too through divorce, but I think it's especially jarring for folks that are coming out of that into looking for community. And then to further what you were talking about, Melisa, if you uh, if are pansexual. If you're non monogamous, if gender not conforming, gender fluid, gender queer, non-binary you add on the layers to that. And it is really, really challenging. Really hard. And really exciting. And how do you hold both those things? Maia: Yeah, that's a really good question. And it is a really eye-opening drop of community, leaving, leaving the safety of heterosexual norm. It changes your whole perspective of what community is and how you build community. An honest, authentic community. I think I still grieve it. If I'm honest. I still grieve that loss of that community that I thought was so wholehearted and it, it wasn't, or at least it was at the time and that it's different now. So, yeah. Melisa: It's funny too. I'm realizing in my own experience that it can also, for some people be almost validating. For me specifically, in my marriage, because of my ex's job, there was a lot of like gender based stereotypes. So he was in sports. And so I was a sports wife at, at a high level. So we went to all these galas and big events, and I would go to the wives brunches when I really wanna go hang out with the dudes and talk about the game and strategy. Right. And so for me, there was certainly I can resonate with losing sort of the community that was around us in terms of our friends, family kind of thing. In a way. It really validated that, that I never fit into that community. And my role in quotes as a wife and it was like, oh, well, that's why. You don't really like hanging out with all the straight girls. That's just like really not your thing. No wonder you don't have a lot of straight friends, like go figure. So yeah, there was a part of it for me that was like permission to not have to try and fit into this thing anymore. Cuz it just wasn't working. Keely: Oh, that's yeah, that's definitely some people's experience. It's great to have that, that other experience. I mean, I think for some people, yeah, it just totally depends because I know for me, my queerness was always very visible. And sometimes it would be like a joke or like not, I mean, yeah, kind of a joke or just, it was always there and I always felt slightly, not a part of it, but still included. And because it was so queer, I just kinda had like a split. It was more like I experienced this split of like, this is how I am. I would definitely lean into a certain part of my identity, depending on who I was hanging out with. And if I was with my family, if I was with my ex's family, if I was with friends, which friends I was with professionally, like it took me a while, you know, 17 years ago, 16 years ago when I was in grad school, I wasn't fully identifying with everyone who I was especially cause I was still married. And so like the whole like non monogamy or whatever you wanna call it back then, you know, having ethical non-monogamy within a marriage within a legal marriage was like, ugh, where we didn't really talk about it, but people always just kind of assumed. And that was the other thing, is people just kind of guess, or just assumed or have these ideas. But I further in this piece about community is also recognizing how people use it as an opportunity to disclude people and there was an interesting thing that came up there's I was listening to Dyking Out, the podcast Dyking Out and they were talking about some tweets and there's some fervent beliefs of where CIS men, if anywhere, CIS straight men have place in the community. And I think going back to the Ani DiFranco comment of like, oh, there's men here. And I mean, Ani. Yeah, there was, I remember I must been my early twenties. There was this huge backlash because she was such this symbol of like rebellious women and lesbians. And she's been with a dude for how long. Maia: Yeah. I mean, for a while, I mean, I think she's gone through some relationship changes as well. Yeah. But I think that no, you're right. There was a huge backlash to her for being with a man. It was huge. Yeah. And you're right. There is an exclusion that happens when we label in, in looking in those communities. But I also, like, I also think I, and maybe this is me because of where I am in my, in my coming into position is I think I am questioning everything. I think about looking back on who I was as a young person and some of the roles that I did play, like you were saying, like where, where I showed up. Yeah. And who, who I was with and what role showed up. And I have friends who are like, how did they not know you were a lesbian, you, I mean, you've always been, I have lots of friends who've said that, but then I think, but wait a second. Isn't that just, again, this expectation of roles that we have that we think that we're labeling. I was always the one who would go out with all my friends and I was a protector. So I was definitely playing a more masculine protector role, where I would, you know, make sure that my girls were taken care of and you don't screw with my ladies, but it wasn't, in my opinion. Now I look back on it and thinking of it as a very mothery nurtury, but then I have folks who are like, no, wait a second. You were totally the lesbian in this situation, you were holding that lesbian role. Or I was the boy in the family who was always the one mowing the lawn and out in the, the garden and doing the, the yard work and wanted to mess with the tools and. Was that a lesbian thing? Was that a masculine trait? Was that just who I am? So I think that's where I'm at in this really interesting state right now of like questioning everything. What is, what does it mean that I love tools and that I can fix anything in my own house. Does that make me a lesbian because it ticks that box or does that make me Maia because that is who I am. Does that make me more masculine? I don't know. Like I'm in this really interesting questioning everything right now phase. Keely: Yeah. That's a wonderful space to get to explore. And within these community building spaces, there's so much discussion about how do we bring in folks and not exclude folks, but also keep it within the dynamic of some kind of safety. But then it's like, I, I really believe in self selection though. Melisa: Okay. I, I mean, I think I wonder where that's going and I don't wanna veer too much off this topic within the time limit. Maybe bring it up at another time. But because I did have a conversation with someone who has a group on Facebook, that's I wanna say lesbian. I don't remember what it's exactly called, but it has lesbian in the word. And I offered to talk to her about how to be more inclusive. And what I came up with when I was talking to her about her group is like, just let people self select if you have. I think that's the thing is like, If there's a label, we get to choose how we describe it. Whether we feel like a lesbian, cuz we listen to Indigo cis we, someone identifies as a lesbian because they're Goldstar lesbian or because after being an cis hetero marriage or not a cis hetero appearing marriage, and they just want that title that fits them, whatever that is let people self select. And so be it. The ways that we think we're protecting ourselves from a fear base. I don't think those people are gonna be in those spaces. Yeah. And when you say that too, like I'm thinking about labels and how, if we have like criteria, people need to meet to make a label how problematic that becomes like yeah. Yikes. You know, and, and having to prove oneself when, as we're talking about in our topic, like some of us have, have worked really hard for a really long time to come into ourselves. Like I don't wanna have to prove myself to anyone ever again , you know? Yeah. So I'm really resistant to any kind of questions that, well, what about, well, did you do this? Did you do this? I'm like, no, I'm, we're done with that conversation. I know who I am. Keely: Well, going back to the idea that like, when we think about, you know, someone could be identifying as a lesbian and never had sex with a woman only, or let's, let's clarify only had sex with cis men, but could still be a lesbian. Right. And that, that conversation, but even bringing that out more is within a community that is still being so discriminated against and there's these laws coming out the way to fight against that is to actually be more inclusive, I think. Yeah. Yeah, because we're not gonna be Ohio. Was it Ohio or what state now is saying that you have to quote unquote, prove that you're a girl and I'm using girl for those that can't see my quota air quotations. They're actually gonna be looking like checking out genitals, like what the actual fuck. Maia: For what purpose? Keely: For being on sports teams labeled as girls sports teams. So we don't want to sit there at a bar, that's called a lesbian bar and be checking out people's genitals. No, so we want to believe people where they're at and however they wanna identify and bring them in and be welcoming and eventually expand. I mean, You know, the gay, when we talk about the gay agenda, the gay agenda is just to be like, have open, accepting, loving ways to connect with whoever the fuck we wanna connect with and have that love and joy and freedom of expression. Yeah. And we are in a time that is trying to squash all of that. So we don't wanna be more exclusive. We don't, we wanna be more inclusive and, and all join to go against this wave of discrimination and hate. Maia: I totally agree with you. And I think that when I have said, I wanna, I wanna break out away from the labels. I really think that that is what I mean. It's less about the inclusion in a specific group. It's more about, I want to include all of these parts of every, of who I am. I want to be all of these things and that is how I identify in some ways. Right. I think that sounds crazy, but I think I, like, I want to include. Yeah. I wanna be inclusive and I, and I, that can I be in that community? That's the community I'd like to be a part of. Keely: Yeah. Inclusive. Yeah. That's what we're working towards. Yeah. Melisa: Fluid with that, along with inclusivity, like I'm tired of us still thinking that in any part of our lives, as human beings, we're fixed in any way, like things change. And so that's another reason to be more broad or inclusive with things like labels because I may use the word lesbian and then that may change in 10 years because I have changed, you know? And so I think, yeah, that's part of the inclusivity too, is understanding that we're all on a journey and it, it, you know, it's not like here's what I've got. This is what I'm sticking with forever. Keely: Yeah, for sure. Yes. Well, on our journeys, how do we bring more joy into this journey and what have you all experienced around Queer Joy this week? Maia: Well, for me, I'm gonna say it's really interesting that we're coming here to this question, which although I know it's come, it happens on this podcast. This is a normal question. So at the Ani DiFranco concert, I will tell you that I went there in a little bit of a hoping of getting out some of my frustration and anger and singing songs that made me feel more power. And like, I was going there with almost an agenda to be, oh yeah. To be angry. Yeah. and I, and I came out of the concert, listening to her and watching her and listening to her message this time, which felt more to me like we need to be more joyful. Yeah. And it was an awakening because really that's the point is that I found the strength to walk out of the concert and say, actually, what I really want is to be joyful, not angry. And what I really need is to fight for my joy. Not to be angry. And so that was my Joyful moment is, you know what? I gotta go back to joy. I gotta start facing my life struggles and my life challenges with a more joyful girl personality. And I say it that way, because that was one of her songs, Joyful Girl. That meant something to me. And I have to come back to that. I gotta go back out with my Joyful girl personality and fight my fight that way. Keely: Oh, awesome. Thank you. Melisa: Well, my Queer Joy, I think works well with the theme of labels. Unexpected Queer Joy, but here you go. I had, I had a medical appointment this morning with a queer provider, very amazing queer provider so let me make that clear. Sometimes medical appointments cannot be joyful for queer people. This was somebody really great and just like standard questions as we were going through the, the initial intake and the I've never had this question posed to me this way before, but they asked me, are you cisgender or transgender? And I like kind of froze cuz I'm like, well, what, what the fuck is a gender fluid person supposed to do here? Like , you know, I already deal with like, where do I fit in as a bisexual person? Where do I fucking fit in as a gender fluid person? Like which day of the week is it? So it's it's it was interesting. And I just kind of paused. I'm like, well, I guess, I guess trans cuz I'm not always cis and it, it seems like CIS is all about, you're always identifying with this at birth, but yeah, it just was an interesting question, but I think the, the part that was joyful for me granted. I mean, it's, it could have been more inclusive or other , you know, but I think the part that felt especially joyful was like the recognition that, that word CIS felt so uncomfortable for me. When that question was posed, you know, the word trans didn't feel uncomfortable. It's not a label I've used for various reasons, which, you know, it's probably more for me to look at and work through, but that was interesting. I was like, whoa. Okay. Well here, how do I go from here? You know, and again, I just explained it as I shared with you both and was well received and I felt very witnessed and validated. I'm like, oh, well, thank you for illuminating me to the fact that that word feels real uncomfortable right now. so that's my Queer Joy.. Awesome. Keely: Uh, I think this is one of those, I don't know if I've ever been, had to pause for a minute. Ooh, that's big. Be like what was I've had, there has been some Joy. I think the challenge sometimes can be in this time period and always can be finding the joy within the really hardship. And I will be very blunt that. Holy moly. This has been such a hard past couple weeks. And I think Maia when you were saying, like finding the joy or going to the joy, I think about the joy being the reason to fight and, and the anger. I think a, I can just see this symbol. Ani had this like righteous babe. I think that was like, like one of her phrases back in the day. Oh yeah. You, you got the shirt. Yeah, it was just like Righteous, babe. And I think I really come into some of my joy is from being okay with my anger. and I think coming into joy, I really feel. My joy this week in realigning purpose. And that's very vague. I know , it's not really on par that we used to talk about, but I will say in one Joyful moment within all of the challenges and like finding out some health news and like with my injury and all of these things, I was able. Oh, now I remember part of me edit some of this I was in the flower garden. Oh my gosh. So I went to see sometimes just takes a moment to find it. I was in the rose garden and I was there with an ex. Yes, very gay. And we were meandering about, and this woman I had on my resist shirt, which by the way, the resist, it says resist in its trans color. Specifically trans resistance, but it just said the word resist. So this woman in her, like sixties or seventies comes up and she's like, oh my gosh, your shirt, everyone needs this shirt. And she went on her, her like righteous anger telling me the story of how she was in Washington, DC marching and talking about Roe versus Wade. And my joy was in being able to witness this human that's the generation above me who fought for this and now sees how it was taken away and to be able to witness that and hold space for this human. I know that sounds like the antithesis, but this is kinda like a DBT holding two truths at once in, in her righteous anger, I felt joy in being able to hold a space and that she got that she saw my shirt and got to do that. And then my ex comes back and this is the cute, like, I'm like, this is so second wave feminism. So she's ranting for five minutes and my ex comes back and, and she's like, oh, is this your gay lover? My two or two trans people who are just like two trans people who are exes. She was, she was very clear of trying to use the, like the labels, you know, to kinda round out the whole labels category. She wanted to like, I thought it was cute. My ex was kind of like, what the hell, but, you know, and then she said very fervently that she wanted to find my shirt and, and wear it around town to talk to more people about resisting. Maia: I love it. And I think what it, what all this brings me to is the, the quote, right. Joy is a form of resistance. Yeah. And that is where I think for me, the work is. The joy is a form of the resistance. So we just brought it all to that. Keely: We brought it all back. Joy is our resistance. Thank you. Maia for joining us today. Maia: Thank you for having me. Keely: Oh, you're welcome. What a joy, what an awesome experience to chat with y'all today and I hope listeners and everyone, you all have a queer and joyful week. Maia: Absolutely. Cardinal: Thanks for listening to Queer relationships, Queer joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective hosted by Kelly C Helmick and Melisa DeSegiurant. I'm your producer Cardinal marking audio is edited by Mars Gaspar. Intro music is by bad snacks. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it, if you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify, or send us an email at info at Connective Therapy, Collective dot com for more queer joy. Visit our website at www dot Connective Therapy. Collective dot com. Love ya. Bye.