What does gender mean to you? How do we perform gender with our friends? How do we perform gender with our lovers? Hear it all on this episode of the Queer Joy Podcast; where two relationship therapists explore what it looks like to see joy in queer relationships.
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TRANSCRIPT
ep 46
Keely: I think performing gender, not just out in public, but how do we perform gender with our friends? How do we perform gender with our lovers?
Melisa: Hi everyone. Welcome back to Queer Relationships Queer Joy. I'm one of your hosts, Melisa DeSegiurant.
Keely: And I'm your other host, Keely C. Helmick.
Melisa: Woohoo. Here we go again.
Keely: Here we go again. We're getting into one of my favorite topics, but uh, I also feel a little nervous. It feels very vulnerable.
Melisa: Yeah. Today we are talking about exploration of gender and sex and gender, I think specifically and I'm, I'm glad we are dipping back into this topic. We did an episode in season one, and it's interesting to reflect on Keely, especially personally, that my understanding of my own gender has changed since we recorded that episode.
Keely: But isn't that such a good point to even why we're talking about it? Because gender exploration isn't like this. You get to one destination, it's like, it's a continued exploration throughout life.
Melisa: Absolutely. Yeah, and I think just the way that I even worded certain things, I wouldn't use that same language now. And I'm glad that it still exists. You can all go back and listen and see what I'm talking about. I'm glad it still exists because I would want this to show, and especially on our podcast, the evolution of how we are thinking about these things and that we're continuing to grow and, and certainly for myself refining how I use language to talk about gender.
Keely: Well, yeah, and just what you're saying, like language is constantly changing as well. And depending on who you're talking to, there are generational differences. Though at the same time when, as I say that out loud, that's still not an excuse for older generations to misgender or not use correct pronouns.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: But there is a different viewing of it. And I was even talking to someone the other day who grew up like in the, coming into their teenage years, like in San Francisco, Berkeley area, and they, they made a statement like, well, we weren't really, that wasn't really part of that whole movement back then. And I'm like, and I had to check them and be like, actually, trans folks, non-binary folks. All the rays of queerness has existed since humans have been around.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: There was a differentiation, whether it was safe or not, what groups it felt safe to be around, but that language is always, or not that specific language, but humans that express that diversity have always been around.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: It doesn't get talked about in history in the same way. Yeah.
Melisa: I mean, go look at the Stonewall riots and look at Marsha P. Johnson, trans people have always existed.
Keely: Yeah, and it's just, it shows that there's just been. There's also like a lot of cis people, and this is, ugh, a whole debate. I don't wanna go into this too much, but you know, people know about what's like going on in Florida and other parts of the country and this idea, you know, really people that don't understand will make comments like, Whoa, it's just a new trend, or, you know, everyone is like this now, but they're just, like wanting to be trendy. It's like uh, the, well, a, yeah. Okay. Yes. Let's just say everyone's queer
Melisa: Yeah. Queer is trending because we're all sick of being in the damn closet.
Keely: And everyone isn't, not no one cis.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: We all have this range of gender and sexuality.
Melisa: Exactly. Exactly.
Keely: And we scare off all of the Republicans and conservative people, and they hide in their closet more.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm gonna forget the exact Instagram. It's where I get all my wonderful inspiration . But there was a post about the queer agenda, the gay agenda, and essentially like our agenda is to survive, actually. It's to live. Thanks.
Keely: Then the joking part is like just looking for someone to cuddle with. Like someone to post and that, like, the queer agenda for the day is I want someone to cuddle with me.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Which I think is a really good thought as we think about, because when we're talking about gender and specifically sexuality, I think there's a piece of like pleasure around that too, and connecting with self. And that's where the exploration can start. But before we start that we should really quickly introduce ourselves, , I'm Keely C. Helmick. I am a licensed professional counselor, I'm a certified sex therapist, I'm the owner of Connective Therapy Collective. I am a white, nonbinary, queer, fem person, and I am solo poly.
Melisa: And I am Melisa DeSegiurant. I am licensed as a marriage and family therapist, also licensed as a professional counselor, and I work at Connective Therapy Collective. I'm white. I'm able bodied, bisexual, I am polyamorous, I'm gender fluid. I use she and they pronouns.
Keely: Awesome. I think we're getting these like intros down to like almost to science.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Like they're getting more efficient. Definitely a mouthful still, but like location of self introductions are important. Cause then people can know, I mean they can go on and see our faces on YouTube, but getting to know.
Melisa: Do we have updates? I dunno if there's anything to update.
Keely: I don't know. Cause I'm trying to remember what I said in the last episode. I just, if I were to ever be comfortable enough to be vulnerable about doing a chart of Portland, I've definitely become more and more entrenched in the chart of Portland. And I am now friends with benefits with somebody who is also sleeping with somebody that I share, three, no, three partner, or not partners, but three sexual people, partners with.
Melisa: It's the web, it's Alice's web from L word.
Keely: Yes. And the web has gotten really intricate. So that's, I think that's mainly my update. And then just, you know, I'm noticing, as you know, Melisa, you and I do our trainings and workshops and do the podcast. Really getting more and more into these really in depth, more specific conversations. and learning more about what I'm comfortable and not comfortable with. Really learning some boundaries, the Big B word, so, I mean, that's my update. I'm still just like, dating. I got off the dating apps for a minute. I'm still not on the dating apps, but even not being on the dating apps, I have plenty of stuff going on.
Melisa: I was gonna say, it doesn't sound like you're having any trouble.
Keely: No, and I do have a date on Tuesday. I do have a first date on Tuesday and the person like seems really cute and sweet and like, it was so funny cuz they were like, oh, are you gonna be at the Thorns game on Sunday? And I'm like, Yeah. Maybe we'll see each other. And I was like, Oh, what an awkward way to see somebody. We don't have a first date yet, but we run into, you know, each other on the game. I didn't see her at the game, but she did, like, we texted afterwards and it was just really cute. And then I, yeah, I just have these ongoing, my, my circles of ongoing people just like mm-hmm. If you look at my texts, like , like 70% of the people I'm texting with are people I've slept with at some point.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: So yeah, there's my life right now.
Melisa: Yep. That's how, how it goes sometimes.
Keely: Yep. That's my social life, so.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: Well, some of my updates, one of 'em in particular, I'm gonna save for Queer Joy, so I won't spoil that one, but I'm kind of loving the warmth of this beginning of fall.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: And still getting to be outside.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: Glorious day yesterday where I was walking all over Portland. One of my favorite things to do is walk across the bridge, cuz I live on the east side, so walk across to downtown.
Keely: Oh yeah.
Melisa: And it's just, it's amazing. There's something about looking at the city, having the water, just the air. It just, it's incredible. So, It's been, again, we sit here and talk about updates, and here I am talking about my solo dates again.
Keely: And I talk about the messiness of all these humans that I'm juggling. And like,
Melisa: Yeah, something's never changed. I'm definitely still invested in my relationships, a lot of deepening and things like that. So maybe there will be more updates in the future that are more specific or more juicy. But yeah, no things are- Things are going well. I am still very happy.
Keely: Oh, yay. So yeah, I liked your question that we were talking about. I think that's a really great place to start is the question, what is gender?
Melisa: Yeah. When I think about gender, what we were talking about before recording Keely was just what comes up in session. And I think we skip that sometimes. Like what even is gender? Is gender important to you? If not, why not? If yes, why, like, those I think are really valuable questions to be personally reflecting on and and I do think that's a personal reflection. I don't think I can sit here and tell someone. What gender is other than a construct, , you know, and maybe even other people would challenge that particular definition.
Keely: Yeah, and what I notice in more discussions that I have with folks is there is this differentiation for some people saying, I want gender not to exist. And then other folks are like, Oh wait, I really want more vocabulary. And they'll go in depth about their gender.
Melisa: Right? Yeah.
Keely: And so just like so many things, it is very individualized, which is why the question of asking each person, what is gender to you? What does gender mean to you? Yeah. And as we said at the very beginning, that this is a journey and exploration for life. And we can't negate, as much as we would like to, was my opinion. We can't negate how even, like my gender is non-binary and the way that I express my gender and how I see my gender, there's also the influence of how other people see me.
Melisa: Right? Right. We don't exist in a vacuum. Other people can influence our own perception of ourselves.
Keely: And of course that's where for some, some, you know, a lot of people, If they experience gender dysphoria, that's where the gender dysphoria comes into play is because how I see myself is not being reflected and how others see me.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And I would say also in my, you know, I, I'm not speaking for others in the moment. I'm speaking for myself that it's interesting to me how when people get to know me more, they do actually see my gender more. So there's that like split second, Oh, this human blank, and they identify and then as they get to know me, they, they, they see it more.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Which is interesting. And I don't know if other people experience that.
Melisa: Well, it, to me, it brings to mind that. I guess the reminder that gender is how we feel on the inside. It's, it's something we can only really dictate for ourselves because as someone's presentation may not match from, you know, an outside person's eyes with the way they experience their gender, and that's just fine. It does not need to be congruent. Some people don't change their pronouns. And still identify differently with their gender and that's just fine. Right? And so we need to get away from this idea that everything has to be neat and tidy and congruent and like what convenient for us so we can judge people appropriately. Like what is that about? Right? Like, why can't we let it be complex? Because it is
Keely: Well, yeah, cuz a lot of people, Alok, talks about this a lot actually. And I've listened to other writers and podcasts where it's like, Oh, you're feeling if a, if another person is feel, I'm feeling uncomfortable about my gender or my gender presentation or how I am in the world, that's actually about them.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: And it's not about me. And so Alok will goes to as far as their responses when people are like, Oh, like a really common response they get. And if you don't follow Alok, Alokvmenon on Instagram or Facebook, please follow them. Just, they have so much, many amazing things to say about gender and sexuality in the history and just an amazing human. But they, they'll go so far as, you know, they get common comments like, Oh, you'd be so much prettier if you shaved. And they're like, Oh, that's a bummer that, that that's what you're going through for yourself. They're like, cuz I'm, I'm, I'm good with myself. But this is a reflection of how you feel about yourself.
Melisa: Right? Right.
Keely: I'm, you know, people that aren't cis hetero often make other people feel uncomfortable because they actually see when, when cis hetero people or cis hetero quotations, who knows if they're cis hetero, are uncomfortable or make comments towards non-binary trans queer people, it's actually a form of uncomfortableness because they're looking at how much pleasure or joy they're seeing that person really in their gender.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And owning their sexuality.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: So. It- again, it is really about the other person.
Melisa: It can shed light on where someone else is holding themselves back.
Keely: Yes.
Melisa: Maybe even for the name of performing their gender, the way that the world has taught them they are supposed to. So anything beyond that is risky.
Keely: Yeah. And I do like, and I think that wording you just said, I think that's really important in this discussion is talking about performing gender. And what that looks like or how we, and I think performing gender, not just out in public, but how do we perform gender with our friends? How do we perform gender with our lovers?
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Expectations based on how we look or present expectations that are in the bedroom.
Melisa: Yeah. And I want to, and I, I know I've said this before, even I think in our last episode, but the word performing can be used as a negative thing and sometimes I know I have felt in a negative way expected to perform gender a certain way. But we don't have to put shame on that concept altogether. I think it's fair to perform gender the way you want. Like some days I'm feeling myself in a certain vibe and I'm, I want to perform, if you will, that way or present that way. And that is authentic and that that doesn't need to be shamed, you know? We just, we get in such shame spirals with all this stuff. We're like really excited to shame ourselves for everything .
Keely: You know, there's been multiple people that have done official researching. And it's interesting, I don't know if you experienced Melisa. I know very well at how, pretty much how I'm gonna be treated based on how I'm dressed that day and how I'm showing up in the world. And so when I hear that word performing, I think about, okay, I wake up in the morning and if I want to be perceived and treated in a certain way, I consciously choose different outfits. I consciously choose how I wear my hair if I wear a wig.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: What jewelry I put on, or no jewelry. Like I think about that and so that's part of the, like owning that performance.
Melisa: Right, Right.
Keely: If I, It's a sunny day, if I, take a shower, do my hair a certain way, wear hoops, wear a dress, and some like sandal, I am gonna be treated very differently than if I'm wearing a ball cap, like Bahama, you know.
Melisa: Yeah, totally.
Keely: And a queer shirt. You know,
Melisa: I feel you.
Keely: A man's quote/ unquote button up shirt. Like, it's just so different.
Melisa: Totally.
Keely: You can own that word.
Melisa: Yeah, exactly. And, and make it for you. I mean, that's- ask a gender fluid, gender queer person. Like, I think that's what's fun about gender. And you, here's the thing, you can present differently and with fluidity, even if you identify as cis gender. So I'm tired of making this like a queer person's like, issue. Like, no. Like we should, that's my should statement for everyone, . We should all be free to be creative with how we present ourselves. And again, whether you tie that directly to your gender or not.
Keely: Well, and I think just like when we talk about race and like for me as a white person, I have the privilege that I don't ha- quote, you know, I don't have to think about race, but I, it, for me, it's a social justice issue. It's very personal to me. I identify and very much in anti-racism. The same thing. I still have ethnicity, right, as a white person, but I just don't think about it because I'm in a place of privilege, especially in Portland, Oregon. Same for cis hetero people. Cis hetero people still have a gender and a sexuality. They just are walking in the realms of privilege, and so they just don't think about it. And I think one of the things that I really push as, as a supervisor being in the therapy world is having people who identify as cis hetero to ask them what their gender means to them.
Melisa: Right? Yeah.
Keely: How they identify gender because they don't think about gender often. And so the, when we talk about performance, it's like, oh, is that a non-intentional, like when I'm intentionally performing a certain way because I'm choosing to, versus someone who is really in that box of cis hetero um, normativity and how many. You know, things we hear just daily, you know, especially when think about elementary school and middle school and high school, like people experience even as cis hetero people. You know, cis hetero boy who acts too quote/unquote girly or acts like a sissy and then you know, cis hetero girl, that is too opinionated or bossy. So within that realm of gender, it applies to everyone. And we're sitting here saying, Hey. Our challenge to you, a growth edge is if you identify, if you identify as a cis hetero person, cis hetero, monogamous person, explore those, explore your gender, explore your sexuality, explore your relationship dynamic.
Melisa: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. Right? There's always more to learn. So talk about gender and sex specifically, because in the therapy space, This is where so much comes up in sessions that I have with my clients. I don't even know where we wanna start with that. Like,
Keely: I don't know, the one that came up to me is that someone said this earlier, and it's, it's just a phrasing of like a butch in the streets and a fem in the sheets.
Melisa: Love it.
Keely: But then I want, I want the opposite of like, I, you know, I would identify sometimes as a fem in streets, but a butch in the sheets. But like, what does that mean actually?
Melisa: Right. What does that mean? Even, the thing that comes to mind where we start talking, because to me then it sounds like topping, bottoming, like who's power and control and all that. And we make assumptions often based on someone's, again, maybe not even their gender, the way they identify, but their, their presentation.
Keely: Yes. Their presentation of how they look.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: I think that happens and I, you know, I am externally hang out, in the white cis gay world in Portland. And I'm not as familiar with that world as like, I feel like there's like, there's like defining like certain generations of queer folks. There's like the lesbians, there's the gay men. I mean there's, there's these differentiations and I would love for people to write in about this. Cause these are just my, the things that I have noticed, being in Portland for 42 years and being out for, you know, 24 years. But there is something to be said within the queer dynamics. Lesbians, definitely there's like differentiation and expectation, but even the queer world of defining and almost feeling, and even on the dating apps, it feels like really having to define so that you find the quote/unquote right match for yourself.
Melisa: Right? You have to be able to tell the world, here's what I am, here are all the terms, but again, we've said this before, that can be limiting. Like how do we know we may shift with each partner? I experience sex differently with every single person I have sex with. So how am I supposed to know what it's gonna look like with the next person, you know, that sees my pro- profile.
Keely: Well, and I'm gonna interact differently. So I identify as a switch and I jokingly, but seriously will sometimes use like percentages, I'll be like this percent of top this and this percent of bottom. What is the thing that I bought a car earlier, even just playing with the word top and bottom. One of the people I'm dating, they'll say like, Oh, you're such a top in like, world stuff.
You know, like, oh you're such a top when it comes to buying your car. Or like, you know, you're such a top at work. And it's interesting cuz it does play into power, but also really basically to find, often it's like a top is someone who's the person either penetrating or doing the sexual act on or for another person,
Melisa: Right. You can top from the bottom.
Keely: You can toy top from the bottom or you can be. So those very limiting definitions of whether you're being penetrated or not.
Melisa: Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, what if you're both laying on your side, who's the top and bottom then ? Like are you sides? Like, what are you gonna say?
Keely: Well, and I hear, you know, even like on the podcast we're having gay sex, Ashley Gavin talks about it. I hear it a lot in the therapy room and just talking to folks, you know, Ashley will talk about how. She is very much a top. However, she will allow people to penetrate her, but there needs to be more it's only within certain dynamics. And I hear this from other tops too, or people that identify as tops as saying, Well, I, the vulnerability for them of being penetrated is reserved for the people that they have more of a connection or in, you know, more committed relationship or just that emotional, like there's an emotional intimacy to it. That's for some people. But I do think that yet is very limiting. At the same time, I don't wanna discredit, you know, people, there's a new term and I can't remember what it, I, I still forget. Maybe we'll make a note of it , but. The first term, when I first heard it, it was like stone, stone butch, where there's the person who doesn't wanna be touched at all and only does performing and the other. And that, and that totally is fine. Like not, I'm not judging that that person knows that. So when they communicate, and I have been with the person who, who is like a stone butch and they don't touch them and they do all the things, but then when we're talking about these labels, we're also forgetting about like the energetic exchange that happens.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And so tops, or when you're topping, even if you're not like a quote unquote top, but when you're more of the penetrator or doing sexual acts towards somebody, you're getting energy from that. There is something that's just like, and, and, and how do we define that? You know? Or talk about that. I don't know, cause this is not a woo woo. I mean, we can bring the woo here, but this isn't a super woo woo podcast. But I will say that like, even as we use these definitions, we're missing more pieces about that because someone who's a stone butch is still receiving, is still receiving something. It's just energetically, not physically.
Melisa: Yeah. Well, and where we miss the mark too is the assumptions we make on what someone's role should be based on what we think their gender presentation is.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: Like if we're talking a cis hetero couple, I, I think that a lot of people have broken out of this now, thankfully, but there was a time where it was like, okay, the man is the top, the woman is the bottom, and, and we've even like conflated. Then the, the terms masculinity and femininity, which are not necessarily gender specific actually can be more spiritual terms and energetic as you're saying but will conflate that with gender. And so femininity is this soft, you know receptive, not necessarily. There is some, I mean, you know, there's, there's some other forms of femininity. I would be interested in people starting to explore if they're still on that mindset. But that, yeah, that's where I think we can be really limited in how we engage sexually if we are limiting our, I suppose, limiting ourselves based on gender and based on our assumptions of how that gender, once again, is supposed to perform sexually.
Keely: Well, yeah. And we see that, I mean, I think like queer folks already understand more of a baseline of okay, exploring the body in a way that isn't fully gendered in a specific, like, and societal folks can really learn from that. I mean, and one of the ba- I mean, just basics. Okay. Like a cis man definitely has the parts to enjoy anal penetration. And whether or not just because they have, if they have their partner who's a cis woman, strap on and fuck them in the ass that doesn't make them any less straight.
Melisa: Right, Exactly.
Keely: And if they're open to the idea and that doesn't make the, and also if the doesn't make the woman any less female. I mean, she does have different gender than female, but just because the act itself doesn't make or discredit the gender, how you use your body and how you use your body with somebody else, is that, now that can be a part of it. It can be sex, can be gender affirming.
Melisa: I was gonna say, what Keely, you've talked about this before on the podcast and I'm forgetting who said it, but the idea of of gender as a sex toy.
Keely: Yes. That's Lucy Fielding.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah.
Keely: Yeah. She gets credit for that for sure. Uhhuh .
Melisa: Brilliant, brilliant. And I, it, to me it makes it more expansive and playful. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and revisit the thing that I said the last time we did an episode on gender and sexuality that I don't feel like I presented super well. So I'm, I'm doing a redo. But
Keely: Yes,
Melisa: It's an example of how in the queer community we, we can shame ourselves about what we want sexually based on our gender identity. And I've had this from multiple clients, but specifically AFAB clients coming in and they identify as non-binary and have been feeling guilt and shame and all these other things for, in their language, enacting femininity in sex or wanting to enact femininity in sex. And I think when I talked about this before, just the way I phrased it maybe made it sound like all AFAB people should explore femininity in sex. And no wanna be really clear, that's not true. There's no should there. For some that's really unsafe I should say. And that can induce dysphoria and discomfort and, and all of that. So pay attention to what you actually want. But if you are leaning in a direction where you wanna embrace femininity, you get to do that. Even if you're non-binary, even if you're a cis man like you, you get to embrace what is speaking to you sexually. And I think as I say that here we are talking more about energy, less about gender.
Keely: Yes, yes. And how do and well, and I think. And some of you listening, I already know this, but one of those pieces is also when a person is born with a penis and still has a penis, how they can energetically feel their, their vagina or for their pussy or, you know, there's different terms used. And those that are born with a vagina can have an energetic penis and can like be fucking somebody. And energetically go inside of them.
Melisa: Yeah, absolutely.
Keely: I guess we're gonna a little like, is it too graphic? But I mean, we have explicit ratings on the podcast. I don't think
Melisa: You've all been warned.
Keely: I know, I know.
Melisa: I didn't know that this was a thing there's exploring for you to do.
Keely: Totally. And I think that is, That's so cool because people don't, How do we know about these things unless someone tells.
Melisa: Yeah. Right. And here's, here's, Oh, go ahead.
Keely: Oh, I was gonna say, one of the people I remember who uh, person I talked to, they figured out because they were in doing like reiki or doing energy work with somebody. And the person described it to them, and this was not a sexual partner and this was not in a sexual way. And I think that's the line of like, we, you and I are talking about this. We're not talking about this to a person. You know, we have very clear boundaries, right? But that to, to have that idea, what does it mean to have an energetic penis or to have an energetic pussy? Like what does that mean,
Melisa: Right?
Keely: And how do you wore that? Now hopefully we, we gave some people a new,
Melisa: We planted some seeds.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: I will also, and I know we've like mentioned journal prompts in this episode, but this is something I would say like masturbation is a really great place to explore this.
Keely: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, we haven't mentioned masturbation yet, and like for sure when we're talking about exploring, like what is it, what is it like to have that in your head visually, or maybe you use a certain type of porn to have that happen for you. Are you using different, you know, do you use a strap on, do you know whatever you're using.
Melisa: Toys are you using? Yeah.
Keely: Yeah. To explore, you know, and we call the in people, different people say call different things. I think in this context, I do like to use the word certain gender affirming products or certain gender affirming clothing items. But practicing that with yourself and getting comfortable with yourself around that, or as comfortable you are in the moment, not having some idea like, I'm gonna be a hundred percent comfortable with this before I try it with a partner.
Melisa: Right?
Keely: Like, no, it's really intimate and vulnerable. Yes. Let's back up and check to see if you have that safety within the dynamic of the person you're being sexual with. Side note, I hear that a lot of people find it easier to do this exploration with actually somebody who's a stranger and instead of with someone who's long term where they have been expressing in a certain way or performing sexually in a certain way.
Melisa: That makes so much sense to me. Maybe it feels like there's lower stakes.
Keely: Total- yeah. Well, and also like people that have known someone for a while have oftentimes have this fixed way of viewing somebody. And then it becomes they, they need to do their work, obviously, but they get stuck on what they think of that certain person.
Melisa: Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Keely: So then if you go into a new dynamic, a one night stand or a new dating situation, and from the get go, You are enacting sexual acts a certain way, or your gender presentation or the way you talk about sex is different than you used to. They just, they only know that they only know what you're telling them in the moment.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: I mean, as if we have to plug it enough, but no, this is why it's helped. Non monogamy can be great . It's not the only thing, monogamy is great in its own way as well. I mean, in monogamy. The, the hope would be that in monogamy, there's room and conversation for when people change.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: How do we explore this as a couple?
Melisa: Right? Right. Absolutely. But what you're saying I think is so true, Kelly, And I'm noticing even in my own experience, because the partnerships I'm in right now, two of them have been for a long, longer amount of time, and so befo- prior to my gender exploration. Fortunately, they're both queer people and so I have felt very affirmed you know, regardless of the timing there.
But shout out to the, the person that I'm more recently dating. I introduced myself as a gender fluid person, and I, I probably went on multiple, like little spiels about my pronouns and how I identify. And I actually, this was gonna be a queer joy at some point, and I forgot about it, but I had received a text from him that was, without saying exactly the contents of the text there was room to use pronouns and he used both of my pronouns in the text interchangeably.
Keely: Yeah, Yeah, yeah,
Melisa: Yeah. And I. Just about fell out of my skin. Like that's the first time somebody has affirmed my gender in its fullness in a text message. And I just was like, Oh my God. Like, I felt so turned on and so like, cared for. It was absolutely amazing. And I think, you know, not that one of my other partners wouldn't have done that, but it, it just, there was something different about it because this was someone new who was just getting to know me in the, the way I experienced my gender now.
Keely: Oh, yay.
Melisa: I know it. I get two queer joy today. That's one of them.
Keely: Have as many queer joy as you want. The more the merrier. Yeah. I mean I, what's been interesting in my journey and I think that the way people react or talk to me, I notice, so I get really happy when people use a they/them pronouns. And I'm okay. I don't necessarily feel dysphoric with when someone use is the pronoun she, when I feel dysphoric is when I'm being ma'amed or like lady, those types of terms.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: But what I do find is like I'm lean more and more and more into my, they/them pronouns because that's what I really want. And perhaps my people pleasing tendencies is when I'm like, Oh, it's okay if you use she sometimes, where it's like, is that really
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Aligning with me or am I just being a people pleaser? And my ID has, I mean, thank you Oregon. You know, I have an X on my id. But yeah, it's, I think that fluidity and that adjustment when people can actually respond to that.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And you know, we have clients where we're seeing couples in marriages where they've been together 5, 10, 15, 20 years, and, and one of the people comes out, either I'm gonna talk about gender, is one of the people come out as non-binary and or trans, and how their partner reacts.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Keely: And how hard it is for them to adjust. And oftentimes there's divorces because at the end of the day, one of the biggest harms I hear in couples work is when the person who is cis is like, well, I still need you to quote unquote, fuck me this certain way. And so that's honestly where I see gender rigidity and sex and gender play out more in those situations.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Where there's just this, there's this not wanting, it's so rigid. And I see that, I mean the, the couples that I'm thinking of, it's usually been like an AMAB person coming out. And the cis woman's like, Well, I need you to fuck me with your penis a certain way. And it's like,
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: Not this, not willing to explore, like where I'm like, no wait, there's so much more to sex than just that.
Melisa: Totally. To give you the other side, same kind of like dynamic between a, a couple I've had than the, this is female gal, Oh, this makes so much sense, I actually don't like men. So yeah, it totally makes sense to have a different gender. Like I feel affirmed now in my choice to marry you.
Keely: Now that makes so much more sense.
Melisa: Right? Which I loved. I thought that was a really sweet, and that's not always what we hear at therapy, but I, I just thought it was a sweet example.
Keely: Oh yeah. It's a beautiful example because at the end of the day, the way as a species, when we can be adaptable and what, what way to be more adapt, more adaptable than in our gender and sexuality.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, for those who are maybe new to exploring or maybe not new to exploring gender for themselves, like it's okay to take a break from like, looking at it.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: It could get really overwhelming. I tell clients sometimes, like my gender feels like it makes more sense if you don't look directly at it. Like it's something on the periphery that like, yeah, if you don't try and analyze it too much, it makes more sense. But it, it is helpful to just take breaks from all the analysis, you know especially if you're someone who's experiencing lot of dysphoria. Yeah. Go slowly, move slowly. Resource yourself, you know? Even though we're encouraging all this exploration, this is an invitation. It's not a you should be doing all of this.
Keely: Yeah. And I think there are ways that therapy, you know, we definitely help guide people as far as helping them open up more. I mean, we talk about journaling. We're talking about masturbation where we give like really direct ideas of like, Oh, there's these things that exist. Like there's different tools that exist at sex toy shops and gender affirming gear where getting out of your box of like what you think should be used for your specific body part.
I know one of my colleagues was saying there's the strokers that are used for, that are advertised towards trans men. So trans men that have, you know, and it, and it's used on what scientifically or medically we'd say as a clitoris, but that's not the term that everybody uses. Right. But what this colleague was saying was like, Oh my gosh, I wish cis women knew about this.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: It can also be used on cis women.
Melisa: Mm-hmm. And it's great.
Keely: Yeah. But, but even, even within the world of queerness and gender exploration of these toys, the advertising is still limiting.
Melisa: Right. You're right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Keely: And you know, and like things like vibrators aren't just for vaginas, like those, like, so I guess it's insane that I'm, in my head, I'm like, we still have a long way to go because if you go into a shop and you see, we know how easily swayed, I mean, We know how're swayed as a society by advertising. So if we're going in and wanting to start exploring and we look at the marketing like, Oh, this is what I'm quote/unquote supposed to be playing with or trying out, it's like, well, no, what is it like for to try something else, but, we don't even know unless somebody tells us or suggests it.
Melisa: Right. Yeah. We can't, at this point where we're at, we can't rely on the marketing to give us permission. We need to just explore what interests us and maybe some things that we don't think will interest us, and then we'll find out.
Keely: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and there are, we, we, I started the conversation with coming back to the idea of pleasure.
And so I think that there are opportunities in conversations using worksheets to have some vocabulary. Cuz the other thing is unless we have some framework of how to talk about something, we don't necessarily know the potential or possibilities that exist.
Melisa: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Keely: Like what is it? Uh, One of the exercises that I hear therapists talk about sometimes is what is a song? What, what is your gender in a song? Or name an object that that represents your gender.
Melisa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Getting at it from a, a more creative angle and not from the societal programming we've all received.
Keely: Yes. And yeah. Okay. We can sit here and say, Oh, just be in your body and see how it feels.
Being in a body or being present in a body is not always safe for everybody,
Melisa: Right.
Keely: So you can't just say that, you know, there are external when somebody, especially if someone's feeling dysphoric, but even if you're not feeling dysphoric, there are pieces, there are, there are different times that people just don't feel safe in their bodies. And so the exploration can still be external. It doesn't have to be, Oh, I'm, I'm so present in my body and I'm, I'm, you know, it can't like, go into fantasy land. Notice what you're thinking about as you touch yourself or what you're thinking about someone else touches you. What an opportunity when, if someone's touching you and you're imagining your body part looking a different way, or being a different way or the, the sensation is being done in a different way than you usually do it.
Melisa: Right. And giving a shout out to Tuck, who we interviewed a while back. Now it's been a long time.
Keely: Yeah. About a year. Almost a year.
Melisa: Yeah. It's a pleasure in saying no. Yeah. No can be pleasurable. And, you know, especially, I guess that comes to mind, especially when we're talking about dysphoria. There might be body parts or experiences that we do not want, and we get to take pleasure and saying no, that's not for me. We're not gonna do it that way.
Keely: Yeah. And it can change. I mean, I've had, I had a, well, I'm still dating the person this person I'm dating. It's been, you know, off and on long term for like five years. The wording that they used for their body parts has changed.
Melisa: Yeah. Right? .
Keely: Even to the point they, I mean, thank goodness we have, you know, we have the dynamic. They'll text me sometimes and like I'll pop in some, some word and they'll be like, Actually I don't use that word. And then I have to be like, they're like, Where'd you get that word? I'm like, uh, cause we're in a don't ask, don't tell dynamic. And I'm like, what do I tell them that this other person uses this word and in the like throws of sex, I used a word that this other person uses that this person doesn't use.
Melisa: Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, we've talked about relationship check-ins before, and this is a great topic for check-ins. I know I do this specifically with my California partner. They are using, they mostly, they/them pronouns now and I just do a pronoun check.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: Like when I talk to them, I'm like, and we've even had language just around, this is a person that we used to, I used to call my girlfriend and now it's, it's my partner. And so those are really great things to check in about and, and sexually as well.
Keely: Yeah.
Melisa: Or the names we'll be using during sex. How do you want to be having sex? How are- what's coming up for you? Like, you know, that's actually, if we go back to the stars, Evelyn Stars, that last S that I forgot when I did my stars check in last. That one about safety. This is a great time to talk about it. How do we make sex safe and pleasurable? What are the words we wanna use? What do we not want to use?
Keely: Yeah. And that's where communication is sexy. So I think if we're, if people are looking for when they're listening to this and going, Okay, what's, what do I do?
How do I, if they're newer to this exploration or just during the hints? I mean, a lot of people, during the time where there was a lockdown and the pandemic was really in full force, that's where a lot of this came up because people were spending time with themselves
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: In a forced way. And so I think the first step, if somebody is thinking about how to start this process or where to go. You have to carve out time with yourself.
Melisa: Right. Yeah.
Keely: But then in carving out time with yourself, we're also saying carve out relationship check-ins. And have that as a part of your relationship check-in, how is sex going? What are words, pronouns, you know, do you still like being touched the same way? Do you wanna be touched a different way? Do you wanna try something different? And I think that when we talk about journaling, when I think of that, you know, if you are partnered or have multiple partners or multiple people, you're having sex with. The journaling helps prompt you to, to feel like you're prepared about what you wanna say. Like you might just notice something in the moment, and if you feel like, Oh my gosh, my partner's asking me what I want, or if anything's changed, if you, if you write it down and, and explore it in words with yourself first, you can feel more prepared.
Melisa: Right.
Keely: Google look up, you know, Google different articles. We do have some worksheets. I'm trying to find more. We have a worksheet from auto straddle that I'll have Cardinal post so that people can look at it. But again, this is ever changing and if you, hopefully, you know, my hope obviously is that the people listening do have a partner they can talk through this with. And honestly, you can find a friend. Sometimes it's actually easier if you have a friend that you're comfortable with talking about sex with. Hopefully you do. Maybe you try the conversation with somebody that you're not sexual with, because then the pressure or the pressure isn't there.
Melisa: It's probably a good time too if you are wanting to explore gender more. We do have our queer and trans dropping group at Connective Therapy Collective. So if you're a queer identified person and want a space where you can drop in and, and talk about these things again with someone that you're not planning on being sexual with.
Keely: Yeah. And then yeah, and you get ideas like all of a sudden, like, 4, 5, 7 people are talking about sex in a structured, confidential way. You might find, you get like some ideas about where to shop or where to look and
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: So. Yeah, exploration to be continued, for now.
Melisa: Always more to say, but we'll leave it there for now.
Keely: Well, we'll talk about this again in like six months and be like, Actually we have these other words we're using now.
Melisa: Probably. Would not be surprised.
Keely: So what's your queer Joy of the week? Melisa?
Melisa: Yeah, so I went out dancing this weekend, which like, I know, I like, it's so fun and I, it's been years, like, I mean, maybe a decade, like it's been a very, very long time. It's not something that my ex and I used to do. I was at Hollow scene, which I had never been there before, and very queer friendly. Like I was just in a sea of queer people and it made me so happy. And again, I felt so comfortable and I, I continued to have that experience. You know, the more I'm in a queer scene, I'm just like, Oh yeah, this is where I can breathe. And I like, don't give a shit who's looking at me and I'm not, I'm not feeling like tight and held in my body and like I'm holding something back. I get just to be free, you know special on a dance floor. So yeah, it was really great. And then the next day I was like, and my joints hurt. I am showing my age, but I had a great time. Yeah, so it was fun to check out a new spot and to be social and move my body in ways that felt good.
Keely: Yay. Well, my career joy is kind of a, I probably even have used this before, but honestly, something that I'm navigating with joy is with my back injury. I am so limited and I have to be, And like when you mention dancing, like I'm just like, when I get my low moments, I'm like, I wanna dance.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: I get jealous watching like this is the perfect weather for those that bike ride. Do like outside riding. Like I am envi- every time I see someone riding their bike. I'm just envious of them.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: And so, I made the very specific choice to go on an outing, and it was the Thorns last regular season game. And, oh my gosh, like it just, the Thorns games get queerer and queerer and they have this big sign, a huge sign on one side of it says you. You know, we belong. And it was there before the game. And then, you know, they, they moved it so that people could see the game. But it was just this be like, I walk in there at a Thorns game and I'm just like, I feel like I belong. I feel safe. I feel comfortable. It was such a rad game. It was so good. The thorns end up winning three to zero with these like, shit. It was just great. And I was there with one of the people I'm dating, And we just had such a great time and it was really cute cuz they were like, they were watching me and they're like, I love being with you in games, cause I get really into games, , soccer game, any game, even if I don't know the sport very well, but especially soccer and basketball. Oh, basketball, I'm in it. And so I'm like sitting there leaning over like. Punching the bar and be like, Wait, what? What is that? You know, I'm very verbal. What do you just do? Wait, go And, and they're like, observing me is really sweet. Like to hear that feedback. They, And so the joy part Yes. Like around queer people and they're with, you know, they're with one of the people I'm dating, but then also like just owning that I have autonomy to choose that.
Yeah, I know I'm gonna be in a little pain. But I choose to do this activity because I want, cause I want to. And when, when dealing with something that's longer term, I wouldn't call it franic at this point. I do have a baseline of chronic pain, but this is like an intense, intense, longer term healing process. And so even more so now for me to intentionally choose these moments. In spite of the pain to have those experiences of queer joy, it just makes it that a little sweeter.
Melisa: Yeah.
Keely: So that's the episode for today, and you can always find us on Instagram and Facebook Connective Therapy Collective. Check out our website. We have a brand new website, so if you haven't checked us out recently, go to website. See all of the awesome work that Cardinal and Molly did. We got new logo and a new websiite.
Melisa: We also have our own Instagram handle now for Queer Relationships, Queer Joy. I know Cardinal will have plugged that already in the episode, but please check us out. We were going to start posting there and would love to interact with you all there.
Keely: And we have a discord too, so start chatting away. This would be a perfect episode to talk more about in the Discord. So otherwise, thank you for listening. I hope you all have a queer and joyful week. Thanks for listening to Queer Relationships, Queer Joy, a podcast by the Connective Therapy Collective, hosted by Kiely c Helmick and Melisa DeSegiurant with audio edited by Ley Supapo Bernido, and produced by me Cardinal Marking. Intro music is by bad snacks. If this episode made you smile or think, tell us about it.
Cardinal: If you hated it, tell us about that. Review us on iTunes or Spotify or send us an email at info Connective therapy Collective dot com. For more queer joy, visit our website at www dot Connective therapy Collective dot com.
Love ya. Bye.